G-D3GDY1Q4CX Clean Slate Documentary - Recovery Machine Podcast
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Episode 25

Jared Callahan - Director of Clean Slate

Jared Callahan, director of Clean Slate, the documentary, joins us to discuss the film. Clean Slate is a documentary based on two men who try to create a short film while in a Georgia, US, faith-based recovery center. We talk about his motivations for making the Clean Slate and his experiences as an observer of the deep South recovery world.

To watch Clean Slate on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CC2QiAFa6s

Other Links: https://linktr.ee/cleanslatefilm

Learn More: https://www.peoplepeoplemedia.com/films/cleanslate

Jared's Twitter and Insta: @jared_cal

Jared Callahan is a director/producer whose work has been released through Sundance, PBS, The New York Times, and world-class festivals. He also serves as a speaker, writer, consultant, and pastor based out of an intentional living community in Palo Alto, CA. 

#jaredcallahan #cleanslatedocumentary #cleanslatedoc #cleanslatefilm

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Transcript
Nathan McLean:

Welcome everybody to a recovery machine, my name is, Nathan,

Nathan McLean:

and I'm joined as always with my co-host.

Nathan McLean:

Corey, how are you doing, Corey?

Nathan McLean:

Very good, Nathan, how are you?

Nathan McLean:

I'm well.

Nathan McLean:

We've got a special guest in today from down in California.

Nathan McLean:

His name is Jared Callahan and, uh, he's gonna talk to us a little

Nathan McLean:

bit about, uh, some of his film projects he's been involved in.

Nathan McLean:

How are you doing, Jared?

Nathan McLean:

I'm doing well.

Jared Callahan:

It's good to be with

Nathan McLean:

y'all.

Corey Williams:

You're in, is it Palo Alto?

Corey Williams:

Uh,

Jared Callahan:

yeah, we move, it's Pilo Alto.

Jared Callahan:

Oh, it's Palo Alto, which is just Silicon Valley.

Jared Callahan:

Uh, it's where all the tech from the world is, but we now run a farm

Jared Callahan:

south of Oakland, so across the bay.

Nathan McLean:

Okay.

Nathan McLean:

That sounds nice.

Nathan McLean:

. Jared Callahan: It's pretty nice.

Corey Williams:

So, Jared, I, I've got a, uh, just a few little, um, bullet

Corey Williams:

point facts about you, just to give a little bit of a background on who you.

Corey Williams:

And then I want to, um, highlight a little bit about the film that you

Corey Williams:

made, that we, that we've watched, and then the film within the film.

Corey Williams:

And we'll kind of go from there.

Corey Williams:

But we want to provide a little bit of context to our listeners, um,

Corey Williams:

who may not have seen it, but we encourage everyone to go out and,

Corey Williams:

and, and watch your film after this.

Corey Williams:

So, Jared Callahan, you are a pastor and mentor at the Possibility Project,

Corey Williams:

which is an intentional communal living project in, in California.

Corey Williams:

You're the founder and creative director of People, people media.

Corey Williams:

You have a master's in spiritual formation.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

and a Master's of Divinity.

Corey Williams:

You're from California, ended up down in, in, uh, Atlanta, Georgia.

Corey Williams:

You were a filmmaker in residence at the Atlanta Film Society.

Corey Williams:

Is that still, still true?

Jared Callahan:

Uh, I was, it's a three year shift.

Corey Williams:

Okay.

Corey Williams:

You've, uh, worked on a couple of projects, film projects that were

Corey Williams:

featured in the Sundance Film Festival.

Corey Williams:

Um, I'm sure our listeners have, are familiar with that.

Corey Williams:

And, uh, filmmaker of your own films.

Corey Williams:

Um, Janie Makes a play, which is next on my two view list and, uh, and now of

Corey Williams:

course Clean Slate, which is a documentary that we're gonna talk about today.

Corey Williams:

And.

Corey Williams:

For our listeners, uh, clean Slate is an exploration of two men's journey through

Corey Williams:

early recovery and sustained continued recovery in, uh, the state of Georgia.

Corey Williams:

While they are, um, residing in a, in a recovery facility, a faith-based 12 step

Corey Williams:

ministry program, the film highlights two individuals, Casy and Josh as they're

Corey Williams:

on their own journey on making a film.

Corey Williams:

So you are following them as they are making a short film.

Corey Williams:

, well, as it as it is called on the fence, and it explores the sort of

Corey Williams:

the inner turmoil of early recovery of family conflict, of facing sort

Corey Williams:

of personal pain and, and torment.

Corey Williams:

As Cassidy and Josh, the filmmakers are certainly facing their own

Corey Williams:

pain and, and, and torment.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

and.

Corey Williams:

Your film, clean Slate highlights some relapses, some slips being removed

Corey Williams:

from facilities as they're working on this project, coming back into the

Corey Williams:

project for Cassidy, and then ultimately getting the footing and, and diving

Corey Williams:

into the creative process of making on the fence, getting it released.

Corey Williams:

We learned then that Josh relapsed after the release or just prior

Corey Williams:

to the release, I sh release, I should say, of, of on the Fence.

Corey Williams:

And so it is very, About the creative journey as a benefit in recovery, and

Corey Williams:

then the, some of the nuances of what it means to face our pain face, our

Corey Williams:

anguish face, what's, what's hurting us and the reasons that we got there.

Corey Williams:

And it's so much more.

Corey Williams:

And I wanted to, you know, Nathan and I were, were discussing your,

Corey Williams:

your project before you came on here.

Corey Williams:

And I've had to, I had to go away from that movie for a couple of days

Corey Williams:

and really think about what I saw.

Corey Williams:

And for both Nathan and myself, it was not an easy watch.

Corey Williams:

And it was not necessarily like a black and white concrete.

Corey Williams:

Here's what we think about it.

Corey Williams:

Watch it.

Corey Williams:

And my feelings about the documentary have changed a bit over, over the

Corey Williams:

last few days, and I think they will probably continue to change.

Corey Williams:

And I'm sure you'll, you're gonna teach us a few things about

Corey Williams:

some of the, the subtleties.

Corey Williams:

And I want to commend you off the bat for making, as I've gone away

Corey Williams:

from it, a very nuanced, subtle, a more subtle film than I initially

Corey Williams:

realized it was as I was watching it.

Corey Williams:

Hmm.

Corey Williams:

So I guess from my first question to you is, is my description there reasonably

Corey Williams:

accurate or is there anything that you want to add both to your own resume as

Corey Williams:

I stated it, or, or the film itself?

Jared Callahan:

Wow.

Jared Callahan:

Thanks so much.

Jared Callahan:

That, that was great.

Jared Callahan:

The only update is just, uh, we've combined a couple of those things.

Jared Callahan:

So my, my film company has become a nonprofit foundation where now we

Jared Callahan:

have a 95 acre farm, which you would think that if you know the Bay Area

Jared Callahan:

in San Francisco, uh, even the people here don't know that there would be

Jared Callahan:

a farmland available so close to the.

Jared Callahan:

But we invite artists, uh, and young and up and coming artists and diverse

Jared Callahan:

artists to come make art on the farm.

Jared Callahan:

So they stay, they get farm chores, they care for the animals.

Jared Callahan:

We have goats and sheep and chickens.

Jared Callahan:

They can walk in the creek, but then they have each other to encourage,

Jared Callahan:

but, um, more often critique each other's work and make it better.

Jared Callahan:

So, We make a lot of movies here and have a lot of people come

Jared Callahan:

through to make all kinds of art.

Jared Callahan:

But, uh, specifically movies are made here on our farm, so it's called

Jared Callahan:

Heirloom East Bay, and it's, uh, like 18 minutes from the Oakland Airport.

Jared Callahan:

It's, it's so close to so many things, and yet it feels like it's

Jared Callahan:

in the middle of nowhere, so, wow.

Jared Callahan:

That's where my office is now, and that's where, uh, much of my life

Jared Callahan:

is spent, is making things here.

Jared Callahan:

So, no, you nailed it.

Jared Callahan:

That's, that's what we're doing.

Jared Callahan:

Clean.

Jared Callahan:

Is a lot and I'm so glad that you picked up on it or that it stayed with you.

Jared Callahan:

I feel like one of the, the greatest insults when you make

Jared Callahan:

art, especially a film, is we can spend years on these things.

Jared Callahan:

People will watch a film and then they go, oh, well that was okay.

Jared Callahan:

What do you wanna do for dinner?

Jared Callahan:

and it's like we fail.

Jared Callahan:

That's not the point.

Jared Callahan:

So there's different ways to make documentaries and there are movies

Jared Callahan:

that are meant to be a spoonful of medicine where you are learning

Jared Callahan:

stats and facts and see people in white coats explain things to you.

Jared Callahan:

But that's not the film that I wanted this to be.

Jared Callahan:

I was hoping, and I came to it, I can tell you through meeting Cassidy.

Jared Callahan:

I just wanted to learn myself about a world that, uh, is so deep and so wide,

Jared Callahan:

uh, that I could never understand all of it, even if you spent your entire

Jared Callahan:

life in it, . So I just wanted to drill down deep into, uh, the mental

Jared Callahan:

state, the psyches and the road of recovery of these two gentlemen.

Jared Callahan:

So Josh and Cassidy, I, I was speaking at the Atlanta Film

Jared Callahan:

Festival with a feature film.

Jared Callahan:

Janie Makes a Play and I did a q and a, and then was on a probably documentary

Jared Callahan:

1 0 1, how to make a movie panel.

Jared Callahan:

and afterwards two guys came up to me to pitch me a movie video,

Jared Callahan:

which that never goes well, , but that's always a, I'm booked, thanks

Jared Callahan:

Um, but one of 'em was Cassidy and I went out to a coffee with him and

Jared Callahan:

I ended up taking two and a half hours and I heard his life story

Jared Callahan:

and that guy just had it in him.

Jared Callahan:

He had the fight, he had humility, he had a desire to use art.

Jared Callahan:

For Heal Health and Healing.

Jared Callahan:

I think that becomes a major component of this, that, mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

as we've shown the test footage and the movie as we, we finalized it to different

Jared Callahan:

recovery groups and people in recovery.

Jared Callahan:

The overwhelming response was a, we feel seen in a way that many ization of movies

Jared Callahan:

skips over or makes things, uh, not real.

Jared Callahan:

So we feel seen, but then also, my gosh, uh, so many people have then shared.

Jared Callahan:

Poetry, short stories, song lyrics, paintings, yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Like the way that creativity, creativity can be, uh, a key component

Jared Callahan:

in the process of healing or a tool in your tool belt, uh, as you aim

Jared Callahan:

to get healthy and, and stay sober, um, is just, it was overwhelming.

Jared Callahan:

It was amazing.

Jared Callahan:

So I, I, I got to know Cassie, he was great.

Jared Callahan:

They invited me to come out and see their center.

Jared Callahan:

And again, I thought I was gonna go for an hour and six and a half hours

Jared Callahan:

later I got the whole tour and I saw, I met, so, Guys in the facility and.

Jared Callahan:

, the work that they were doing.

Jared Callahan:

And it was just so, so much, it's a whole subculture and a world unto, unto itself.

Jared Callahan:

And so I started mentoring those guys to make movies.

Jared Callahan:

So a year later, uh, the idea for their short film kind of came into

Jared Callahan:

existence and then I realized there was nothing in me that couldn't

Jared Callahan:

just film them, trying to film it.

Jared Callahan:

And that's where the movie began.

Jared Callahan:

So yes, it goes ups and downs and ups and downs.

Jared Callahan:

The process of it has been a lot, but it's kinda what drew me.

Jared Callahan:

In the first place was both the personhood of Josh and Cassidy, but

Jared Callahan:

then the absolutely unique world of recovery that's mandatory to be there.

Jared Callahan:

And that's a, a unique sliver that has many opinions about what it is

Jared Callahan:

and how it doesn't, if it's effective at all, and if so, how and why, but

Jared Callahan:

wow, that's a world where some of the guys didn't wanna be there at all.

Jared Callahan:

They were court mandated they could go serve 10 years in prison or serve

Jared Callahan:

18 months, and then other people were trying to get sober and trying

Jared Callahan:

to get healthy and have mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

a balanced life.

Jared Callahan:

So that it's in and of itself was like, As Josh says, there's a reason

Jared Callahan:

people, uh, in recovery don't make films because it's impossible, , and

Jared Callahan:

that turned out to be semit.

Jared Callahan:

True.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah,

Nathan McLean:

yeah, yeah.

Nathan McLean:

While you, uh, you just beautifully answered, uh, our first question there.

Nathan McLean:

I wonder though, uh, how long did it take before you made the decision yourself

Nathan McLean:

to, uh, to get involved on that level?

Nathan McLean:

Like you, you saw that they were interested in making

Nathan McLean:

films, uh, and I'm guessing you.

Nathan McLean:

, I think you told me before you spent a couple months down there mm-hmm.

Nathan McLean:

and decided that there was something to be, there was more to be seen, more

Nathan McLean:

to be, uh, kind of cultivated there.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

The, the world of recovery, one of the things that revealed itself

Jared Callahan:

to me is just how, how people are not bullshitting each other.

Jared Callahan:

They can, obviously you can't anywhere, but there's something by being in

Jared Callahan:

the room that just states something went off the rails, like it's not

Jared Callahan:

as you intended and just having.

Jared Callahan:

Be kind of played for you by being somewhere can lead to

Jared Callahan:

incredible genuine relationship.

Jared Callahan:

At least it sets it up because, uh, they, they laugh so hard, but then

Jared Callahan:

also they would just cry so hard.

Jared Callahan:

And I asked Josh one time and he said, well, if we don't laugh

Jared Callahan:

every day, then we'd cry every day.

Jared Callahan:

So it's kind of like two sides on the same coin.

Jared Callahan:

It was just like, The emotions were heightened in every way.

Jared Callahan:

And so it meant for a really funny, really close, really

Jared Callahan:

serious, really honest group.

Jared Callahan:

And I think that as someone who's very much outside of that world, or

Jared Callahan:

as a documentary filmmaker, often I enter places holding a camera and

Jared Callahan:

then being a fly on the wall or trying to dissolve into the atmosphere.

Jared Callahan:

and that was a place where they drew it out of you.

Jared Callahan:

They would turn and reference us, me and the cameraman, and they would just talk

Jared Callahan:

to us, which made for the opportunity to be, you could choose to get it in or out.

Jared Callahan:

At that point, it's like, well, I'll be honest too.

Jared Callahan:

Then like, okay.

Jared Callahan:

And that ended up making four relationships that, um, Created the

Jared Callahan:

fodder for a really good documentary.

Jared Callahan:

I mean, it's so much a making of film mistrust and it's not that,

Jared Callahan:

uh, I need to agree with the people I'm filming often I the opposite.

Jared Callahan:

I go try and film people that are a different gender or religion or age

Jared Callahan:

or sexuality than, than myself and express themselves differently in

Jared Callahan:

the world so I can learn about the world and how they see the world.

Jared Callahan:

And in this place I did, I learned a lot and I was quiet often and would

Jared Callahan:

answer questions with ask, but it was a great place to go and, and.

Jared Callahan:

And observe, but then get sucked into the inevitable relationships

Jared Callahan:

and honesty that they live there.

Jared Callahan:

Hmm.

Nathan McLean:

Almost considered Providence in a way, I suppose, with this

Jared Callahan:

one.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

I mean, well that's what makes it, that's what, when we do a lot of of

Jared Callahan:

research for movies sometimes, and we test out movies and that's when,

Jared Callahan:

you know, That you discern that it shouldn't exist, and that's okay.

Jared Callahan:

It's kinda like dating in a relationship, right?

Jared Callahan:

The goal of every dating relationship isn't to get married.

Jared Callahan:

It's to discern whether the relationship should continue and sometimes the

Jared Callahan:

relationship ending is the right move for one or both parties.

Jared Callahan:

Yes, and I feel that way too about coming up with a film idea is, is you're,

Jared Callahan:

you're dating, you're discerning, and this was one, like some don't continue.

Jared Callahan:

This was one that just continued to take the next step and prove that it

Jared Callahan:

was the next right thing to pursue.

Jared Callahan:

So, huh.

Jared Callahan:

Very

Nathan McLean:

interest.

Nathan McLean:

, Corey Williams: uh, we've talked on our

Nathan McLean:

be . You know, how, how a part of it is about accepting the bumps in the road

Nathan McLean:

and accepting that it's not necessarily A to B and being okay with that, and

Nathan McLean:

then being, and then learning from it and picking yourself up and, and hopefully

Nathan McLean:

figuring yourself out a little bit more.

Nathan McLean:

And in, in clean slate, it's clear that, that both Cassidy and Josh.

Nathan McLean:

Works in progress.

Nathan McLean:

It's safe to say that they're, that there are some moments where they are

Nathan McLean:

really struggling with their mental health, with urges and cravings, with

Nathan McLean:

staying on track where they don't stay on track where there's, they're just

Nathan McLean:

on the edge of, of conflict or on the edge of, of crises even you could say.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

And, and so then what came to mind for me was this, the title of your film, clean.

Nathan McLean:

And I'm interested in, in hearing your, your thoughts on that.

Nathan McLean:

Clean slate is, to me, evokes the desire for a fresh start, for a

Nathan McLean:

new beginning, to be sort of all of the, all of the wrongdoings or

Nathan McLean:

all of the pain to be washed away.

Nathan McLean:

And you start this new life while recovery is much more complicated than that.

Nathan McLean:

But I, I saw that desire in, particularly in, in Cassidy, in the film, that he

Nathan McLean:

was gonna bust his ass to try to get a job and get his car working and get

Nathan McLean:

all these things in his life organized and, and make this on the fence film

Nathan McLean:

by hooker, by crook no matter what.

Nathan McLean:

And like that, that would be kind of his, his fresh start or the, the

Nathan McLean:

step one of this new path for him.

Nathan McLean:

And so in entitling the film Clean Slate.

Nathan McLean:

, I guess, what does it, what does that mean for you and is it highlighting

Nathan McLean:

sort of the challenges of that being your, the goal for individuals?

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

You nailed it on.

Jared Callahan:

For, for them.

Jared Callahan:

I feel like there's a real element of hope and you could see it come and go.

Jared Callahan:

You were right to say it.

Jared Callahan:

Recovery is non-linear and in so much of a, an American, for us, especially

Jared Callahan:

culture that is so productivity achiever, consumer driven, right?

Jared Callahan:

With so.

Jared Callahan:

, what do you bring and, and, and what are you building?

Jared Callahan:

And that is just very much, I'm gonna literally climb a ladder, right?

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

. And that is not how recovery works at all.

Jared Callahan:

So for these guys, and I wish I could have known that before getting

Jared Callahan:

punched in the face by it, , by having the recovery go sideways on me.

Jared Callahan:

You know, multiple times that I was just a, a new friend, let alone a

Jared Callahan:

family member, which gave me some, some grace since hum, humility as we started

Jared Callahan:

engaging their family members in the film.

Jared Callahan:

And then in post, since.

Jared Callahan:

Clean slate for that is what I realized this, especially for Cassidy, is that

Jared Callahan:

he has to have a hope that today will be different and the ability to bring

Jared Callahan:

his whole self today to his health.

Jared Callahan:

And if he didn't, Then that's when slips would happen or that's when

Jared Callahan:

he would be vulnerable, or that's when he would start cutting himself

Jared Callahan:

off from relationships that could be constructive or it's a web, right?

Jared Callahan:

It's not one thing that keeps you healthy.

Jared Callahan:

It's a a number of touchpoints that if at any time you start to trim one or

Jared Callahan:

two other people, a mentor right, or a community like other places will hook

Jared Callahan:

you and be like, no, no, no, no, no.

Jared Callahan:

We got you.

Jared Callahan:

Like we are staying with you.

Jared Callahan:

Like an accountability.

Jared Callahan:

And I could see that in the, in them in different ways,

Jared Callahan:

and I learned them over time.

Jared Callahan:

Josh says at one point he's shaving and he says, some people get sober the

Jared Callahan:

first time like my grandpa, but me, it's, this is my 13th or 14th time.

Jared Callahan:

And that's got questions about what are you doing in a, in a recovery facilities

Jared Callahan:

that you could do at 13 or 14 times.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Slip and not come to a solution that's prolonging those patterns

Jared Callahan:

of health or helping you get tools that work better for you.

Jared Callahan:

It was not, he had not been in this one that long, and it's a system.

Jared Callahan:

He was stuck in a system that this is the way to do it, follow the thing, and by

Jared Callahan:

the end of filming him, he was over it.

Jared Callahan:

He did not wanna be there.

Jared Callahan:

He just, he says that, I think, he says, I just wanna have a

Jared Callahan:

regular life, a regular job.

Jared Callahan:

He wanna find a relationship.

Jared Callahan:

You can't do that in a mandatory, A strict place that wouldn't allow

Jared Callahan:

contact with the opposite sex.

Jared Callahan:

You know, it, it was pretty strict in that one part in particular.

Jared Callahan:

So, yeah, clean slate.

Jared Callahan:

You nailed it.

Jared Callahan:

It, it's partly relating to what it means to wipe the slate clean.

Jared Callahan:

When you're making a movie, you literally wipe it after every take.

Jared Callahan:

And if the take went great or terrible, you still erase it and write the next

Jared Callahan:

one on, but that's the only way to put the pieces together and make a movie.

Jared Callahan:

And so fractioned little bits can all add up into something beautiful.

Jared Callahan:

Kind of like a mo m.

Jared Callahan:

And I see that in the way that the scenes of their life for good or for bad

Jared Callahan:

add up to be what it is, and they have to accept that in order to, to shoot

Jared Callahan:

the next scene or live the next day.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

. Nathan McLean: No, it's, uh, yeah, it's,

Jared Callahan:

I just wanted to say that's a, a remarkable take for, uh, somebody

Jared Callahan:

who hasn't experienced, you know, actually going to one of those

Jared Callahan:

centers or, or having a, uh, a real struggle with drugs or alcohol.

Jared Callahan:

That's, uh, unusually perceptive.

Jared Callahan:

So, uh, kudos to you for, for doing the work to, uh, get to

Jared Callahan:

that level of understanding.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

I don't, there's a lot of people who are in it and don't make it that far.

Jared Callahan:

So, um, yeah.

Corey Williams:

You know, I, I, Jared, I, this isn't one of our planned questions,

Corey Williams:

but I, uh, your, your answer there got me thinking back to the, to the

Corey Williams:

film and it highlights his Cassidy is.

Corey Williams:

Is working on, on, on the fence, the, the film that they're making.

Corey Williams:

And he's talking about his, his own what, what movies mean to him.

Corey Williams:

And at the end of the day, he goes back to his home and, you know, he's curled

Corey Williams:

up, sort of semi prone or sideline on the couch wrapped up in a blanket.

Corey Williams:

And for me like that, it, it, it generated such a, such a sort of

Corey Williams:

visceral physiological response, like a, almost a nausea in think.

Corey Williams:

and I, Nathan and I were talking about this, we don't want to, I

Corey Williams:

don't ever want to be the person who tries to predict someone else's

Corey Williams:

journey of, of recovery, right?

Corey Williams:

But like you see him and you think, oh, like he's alone, he's still

Corey Williams:

isolated, he's going through pain.

Corey Williams:

And you could just sort of see it coming and then shortly

Corey Williams:

thereafter, he ends up relapsing.

Corey Williams:

And the expectation or the the hope then can also.

Corey Williams:

Can hope without sort of the putting these pieces in place that are going to

Corey Williams:

let you be constructive and proactive and, and work towards something.

Corey Williams:

It's dangerous.

Corey Williams:

. Jared Callahan: Yeah.

Corey Williams:

It's, it's way to notice that it's dynamic and it's multifaceted, right?

Corey Williams:

Like, you could focus on one thing all the time, and at one season for

Corey Williams:

you, it might be the key thing to focus on, but as soon as you start

Corey Williams:

ignoring other areas of your life, those will creep up and get you mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

So it's, it, it's a, it, it's a dynamic game if that's, you know, it's like,

Corey Williams:

it's like I'm always aware and you're always moving and I could see that and as

Corey Williams:

soon as you would, uh, Cassie could like lock and focus in on something, movies.

Corey Williams:

With all of us, I mean, can provide a really safe place

Corey Williams:

and that scene, I love it.

Corey Williams:

I love both.

Corey Williams:

it happened that it was raining and we followed em into a, a DVD v D store.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

in Atlanta.

Corey Williams:

They're so great.

Corey Williams:

It's like one of the only DVD stores that still functions.

Corey Williams:

It's independent.

Corey Williams:

They're called Video Drum.

Corey Williams:

They're so supportive.

Corey Williams:

They're the best.

Corey Williams:

They're excited for us to have copies of the movie so they can have it in the

Corey Williams:

store, and they just let us follow 'em around and talk movies while filming

Corey Williams:

them in the shop, and that was so cool.

Corey Williams:

But then also when he was just on it, the one that gets me, he's, he's on his couch,

Corey Williams:

like you said, and he presses play and you just hear that like the movie pre.

Corey Williams:

, the famous ones that we can all do.

Corey Williams:

Yeah.

Corey Williams:

You know, from memory.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

and he's alone and it's dark and it's raining and it's not good.

Corey Williams:

But in that moment he is good.

Corey Williams:

And maybe, maybe lowercase g.

Corey Williams:

Good.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

, like he's okay.

Corey Williams:

Yeah.

Corey Williams:

He's good.

Corey Williams:

And that, that movies and stories provide being seen in different ways and escape

Corey Williams:

and feeling like you have friends.

Corey Williams:

And I just think there really is something cathar.

Corey Williams:

to that in ways it can be really healthy.

Corey Williams:

And then other ways it's escapism that leads you down paths

Corey Williams:

that aren't, aren't healthy.

Corey Williams:

So yeah, I saw, I've seen it.

Corey Williams:

I've seen it be both in him and then overall, it ends up being his channel

Corey Williams:

for hoping to tell his story and help people if they could see my story.

Corey Williams:

One of the cool things with Cassidy is there's a new app

Corey Williams:

that they're sending films to.

Corey Williams:

It's like Netflix for prison, right?

Corey Williams:

It's like a closed loop for people who are in.

Corey Williams:

And he made a short film a couple weeks ago, and in a week it had 250,000 views.

Corey Williams:

Wow.

Corey Williams:

So he's really honing in on, he sends me scripts, you know, weekly of

Corey Williams:

things that he wants to make still.

Corey Williams:

So it's still providing a channel for all ups and the, the downs, uh, of a place

Corey Williams:

for people who need a good story or need to hear a story of hope or redemption.

Corey Williams:

And that can be one piece of hopefully, uh, a large team,

Corey Williams:

getting them healthy, so.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

, that's, that's, if there's anything that Cassidy can do,

Corey Williams:

That, that would be one of them.

Corey Williams:

And he's doing it so

Nathan McLean:

Great.

Nathan McLean:

Wow.

Nathan McLean:

That's amazing.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

Uh, it leads us into the next question as well.

Nathan McLean:

Um, you noted.

Nathan McLean:

on, I think it's, it's online there on your, on Clean Slate's, uh, website.

Nathan McLean:

The goals of the film were to increase empathy for, for people who are

Nathan McLean:

going through these type, type of struggles, and also to highlight how

Nathan McLean:

creative outlets can be a, like you said, either a cathartic or a mode

Nathan McLean:

of, uh, getting through tough times.

Nathan McLean:

Uh, you've seen that with Cassidy.

Nathan McLean:

What kind of successes have you seen otherwise?

Nathan McLean:

Um, as far as the empathy is concerned, have you seen people who've watched

Nathan McLean:

the film and, and come back with their eyes a little bit more open?

Nathan McLean:

Or how's that

Jared Callahan:

been working?

Jared Callahan:

Oh yeah, man, we thought we, well, we, we came to the phrase of everybody

Jared Callahan:

knows someone in recovery or someone who should be, and sometimes it,

Jared Callahan:

it was them and we thought that people in recovery would resonate.

Jared Callahan:

But that's just such a large pie that, you know, in America, 25 million people.

Jared Callahan:

Currently, uh, are articulating, uh, an addiction in their life.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

so that that's not a small target.

Jared Callahan:

And then we realize, well, people who are creative and also on the

Jared Callahan:

road of recovery might resonate.

Jared Callahan:

And then what we've realized as we've shown it in some places, the people who

Jared Callahan:

resonate the most deeply with this movie are friends and family members of people

Jared Callahan:

who are lifetime on the road of recovery.

Jared Callahan:

People.

Jared Callahan:

I think what we're finding, like one of the, we showed it at a, at a, at a non

Jared Callahan:

non recovery center, a 2020 test screener.

Jared Callahan:

As we fill out a thing, we did a, a questionnaire and afterwards

Jared Callahan:

someone came up and said, my brother has been, uh, struggling

Jared Callahan:

with addiction for the last decade.

Jared Callahan:

We have not spoken to them.

Jared Callahan:

They have been cut out of our family.

Jared Callahan:

After watching Josh and Cassidy, I could say for the first time, I, I can

Jared Callahan:

see what's going on in his head and I realized that I need to forgive my

Jared Callahan:

brother and I'm gonna show the film to my parents because my parent, I

Jared Callahan:

think it can reconcile our family.

Jared Callahan:

Oh my God.

Jared Callahan:

And we just went.

Jared Callahan:

So you liked it?

Jared Callahan:

Like what, what, what notes are there out of that?

Jared Callahan:

Like, but that's the stuff that's come out of it.

Jared Callahan:

Is this like incredible grace when you've been hurt.

Jared Callahan:

I see the hurt.

Jared Callahan:

and when that is bottomless, when that Josh said one time, if I could

Jared Callahan:

rob for my grandma, I would, right.

Jared Callahan:

So that is a bottomless addiction driving your behavior.

Jared Callahan:

And if that ends up leading you to a place where you need to seal off

Jared Callahan:

or harden or create space, I now understand how you could get there.

Jared Callahan:

But what I'm seeing is there is another side of that, whether it be time and

Jared Callahan:

or work and or health and or support for the person that's not you, but

Jared Callahan:

there is a place where after enabling.

Jared Callahan:

Then people have come around to a place where they're ready to forgive

Jared Callahan:

and move back into relationship.

Jared Callahan:

And that has been what I was un unexpected.

Jared Callahan:

I I did not realize how many of those stories would get shared

Jared Callahan:

and the movie came out Friday.

Jared Callahan:

Like, it is, this is not a, this is brand new into the world, but just from

Jared Callahan:

testing the film, it has, uh, really done what beyond what we had hoped it.

Nathan McLean:

Wow, that is amazing.

Nathan McLean:

I can't imagine how satisfying that must feel just to have that happen once.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

I mean, you're talking about bringing people together on a very

Nathan McLean:

important scale and, uh, yeah, the timing couldn't be better for it.

Nathan McLean:

This is a time of division in, uh, especially your country,

Nathan McLean:

but our country as well.

Nathan McLean:

And, uh, you don't want to see, oh, I see.

Nathan McLean:

Uh, divisions in family like that.

Nathan McLean:

It's, uh, it's very difficult.

Nathan McLean:

And, uh, man, I just, yeah.

Nathan McLean:

Hat tip for that for sure.

Nathan McLean:

That's, uh, appreciate it.

Nathan McLean:

Incredible work.

Jared Callahan:

The team has been great, but also Josh and

Jared Callahan:

Cassidy being so honest, right.

Jared Callahan:

I mean, it is hard to, to let a circle full of people in a meeting in dear life.

Jared Callahan:

How do you do it with.

Jared Callahan:

. Right.

Jared Callahan:

And how do you do it?

Jared Callahan:

Where we were, we were there with him when he was using, you

Jared Callahan:

know, like it was not mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

, it was not a friendly to yourself time, but he trusted us and I'm so grateful

Jared Callahan:

in the end that they've seen the film and there are tough moments for both

Jared Callahan:

of them, but it ends up being something that they see a greeter good in.

Jared Callahan:

And I'm, and I'm really thankful for that, you know?

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

Could you imagine Corey, uh, somebody following you around with

Nathan McLean:

a camera in a treatment center?

Corey Williams:

Yeah, no, for sure.

Corey Williams:

, you know, and, and I think that, I suspect that why it's resonated

Corey Williams:

in that way with family members.

Corey Williams:

You are, you act as a, as a very careful observer as the filmmaker of, of, of

Corey Williams:

filming Cassidy and Josh, where there are moments where there's little.

Corey Williams:

Small agre, you know, moments of aggression or moments of frustration,

Corey Williams:

um, or moments where the where of self sabotage or of just making a choice

Corey Williams:

where you think, oh, if, if it was your, your brother or your loved one, you'd

Corey Williams:

want to like, take him by the shoulders and say like, what are you doing?

Corey Williams:

Take him , stop it.

Corey Williams:

And just as, as the filmmaker, you, you, you put us in the position to

Corey Williams:

observe them like that and where.

Corey Williams:

. I mean, it's sort of a interesting metaphor might not be the right word, but

Corey Williams:

you are, there's a, there's a parallel there between real life art, imitating

Corey Williams:

life of being the observer of people who are making those choices and self sabo

Corey Williams:

sabotaging and you can't reach through the, your TV screen to, to shake them

Corey Williams:

And I mean, I don't know, was that intentional or is that just

Corey Williams:

sort of by virtue of the subject?

Corey Williams:

. Jared Callahan: Well, it kind of happened

Corey Williams:

had to happen in order for them to get, to keep making the film based on Cassidy's

Corey Williams:

behavior and, and the, the Recovery Center allowing him to come around again.

Corey Williams:

Right.

Corey Williams:

He was, he was on his third strike there when we started filming, so

Corey Williams:

everything could be handled differently.

Corey Williams:

I understand the way the, the center responded because they had 40 or 50 other

Corey Williams:

guys that they were trying to help stay sober, and if someone's gonna continue to

Corey Williams:

relapse, you gotta say, okay, then you.

Corey Williams:

you can't be in our space in this time, so I understand that.

Corey Williams:

But man, it, yeah, it, it, it was, it was a lot.

Corey Williams:

I think with filming we decided, one, we were never gonna do

Corey Williams:

anything to risk their health.

Corey Williams:

, like we knew that the possibility of relapse was always on the table, but we

Corey Williams:

were never gonna show it in the film.

Corey Williams:

And we decided that from the first day because we didn't want to ever

Corey Williams:

aid in their voice to recover.

Corey Williams:

I didn't need to help addiction have a louder voice in their head

Corey Williams:

to convince them to do something for camera or something, right?

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

. So once they saw that, we were never, we were gonna be with

Corey Williams:

them, but we were gonna never do.

Corey Williams:

To aid their relapse or aid their drug usage.

Corey Williams:

I think that set some ground rules and I think then it was like, there was

Corey Williams:

even trust in that, that we weren't, we were there for not that it needed

Corey Williams:

to end happy because when we showed it some places, it was like, well,

Corey Williams:

if it's too happy then it's fake.

Corey Williams:

That's not recovery.

Corey Williams:

Like there's a real fine line there at the end with how do you end hopeful but real.

Corey Williams:

And when we test screened that, that thing, I think the version of the

Corey Williams:

movie that was released was number 17 because in version 16 I added

Corey Williams:

that title card that you referenced about Josh because it made it real.

Corey Williams:

And if you don't have that information about what happens with Josh, then you

Corey Williams:

could end by saying, oh, he's the rock.

Corey Williams:

He was good enough.

Corey Williams:

But as soon as you know what he really did, there are 11 places throughout the

Corey Williams:

film that you now can see if you ever see it again, where you just go, he's

Corey Williams:

telling you the whole time what's gonna.

Corey Williams:

Totally.

Corey Williams:

That's that.

Corey Williams:

Oh yeah, that's, that's the addiction speaking.

Corey Williams:

So once that made it more real and we realized that that how we could honor

Corey Williams:

the reality, but also answer hope.

Corey Williams:

then it was like, okay, we did it.

Corey Williams:

We, we only made decisions to support their sobriety and their health.

Corey Williams:

Mm-hmm.

Corey Williams:

. And we didn't conflate anything and we didn't do anything to Hollywood

Corey Williams:

eyes or make a better movie.

Corey Williams:

And if we could do that, then we've held up the most accurate mirror we

Corey Williams:

could, where they could see it and feel seen, but then other people could see

Corey Williams:

it and feel like it was a, like you said, a, a glimpse into a world that

Corey Williams:

many, many people wouldn't have access to or would choose not to do it in the

Corey Williams:

way that they're trying to do health.

Nathan McLean:

Could you see during filming?

Nathan McLean:

I mean, you've probably seen, uh, probably filmed some scenes many, many,

Nathan McLean:

many times, but the times that you're talking about where, you know, you

Nathan McLean:

mentioned looking back now, you, you can, you can tell it's obvious that,

Nathan McLean:

uh, trouble was coming for me and Corey.

Nathan McLean:

It was, I mean, we could see it right away.

Nathan McLean:

uh, and I Did that come through for you?

Nathan McLean:

Uh, personally?

Nathan McLean:

while you were doing it or was, was it something you didn't have enough kind

Nathan McLean:

of experience with the first time?

Jared Callahan:

definitely didn't have enough, uh, wherewithal or experience

Jared Callahan:

to know how much that was coming.

Jared Callahan:

Uh, I, I was aware of the numbers in that center and aware of how often

Jared Callahan:

people were relapsing cuz there was people around them that were

Jared Callahan:

relapsing or not showing up to stuff.

Jared Callahan:

And I was like, oh, this is happening.

Jared Callahan:

Like, you can find it if you want it, even as strict as they wanna be there.

Jared Callahan:

You, you would find it.

Jared Callahan:

And I think that, oh, like you asked me coming into it, I think part of that.

Jared Callahan:

Realizing in the edit and then on another film that we released just now

Jared Callahan:

about a friend who, who dies and we're aware of his oncoming uh, untimely

Jared Callahan:

death that I had to show up in the film.

Jared Callahan:

Cuz otherwise it's callous.

Jared Callahan:

Like that would be the worst, is if you're watching it as an audience and

Jared Callahan:

you don't feel like you have a safe way to be watching it, then it's no longer

Jared Callahan:

a laugh, cry, laugh, film cuz you are.

Jared Callahan:

, you are a voyeur.

Jared Callahan:

You are watching in a way that's not invited.

Jared Callahan:

But as soon as the camera person speaks, or I have made myself known,

Jared Callahan:

I'm in clean slate, I'm in it.

Jared Callahan:

But I tried to cut myself out.

Jared Callahan:

But in the new ones, sometimes I shake.

Jared Callahan:

Uh, I'm in it a lot and it's a way that you could sit with someone that you didn't

Jared Callahan:

ever know, but you're gonna spend an hour and a half with them to their death.

Jared Callahan:

and you have the freedom to laugh, cry, laugh with him.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Um, and, and I just think that access for me in these two films, I, I

Jared Callahan:

definitely won't do it in every film.

Jared Callahan:

I don't like doing it.

Jared Callahan:

Uh, filming at the end of Clean Slate was very difficult because I had

Jared Callahan:

written myself into real life had wrapped me into the role I was in.

Jared Callahan:

But for both of these films, for a clean slate and for sometimes I shake, it was a

Jared Callahan:

necessity for the audience to feel safe.

Nathan McLean:

Huh.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah, that's, uh, that's an interesting take too.

Nathan McLean:

And I, yeah.

Nathan McLean:

I believe that's the correct one.

Nathan McLean:

, but that'd be experience in filmmaking that would give you that insight.

Jared Callahan:

You can kind of feel it too.

Jared Callahan:

And in the edit of the, especially the, the newest one, those are

Jared Callahan:

both edited during, finished during Covid is w that project i I

Jared Callahan:

wrapped 14 years ago, the filming.

Jared Callahan:

And every time I would try and edit every six months, I'd pick it up and try and

Jared Callahan:

edit and I would just cry and then put it down for six more months, and wait.

Jared Callahan:

So until all our other filming got shut down and I had an editor who worked with

Jared Callahan:

me, uh, here at the farm for all of.

Jared Callahan:

, we realized we probably wouldn't have done that right when my friend Dan passed.

Jared Callahan:

But give yourself 10 years and start editing again, and you

Jared Callahan:

realize, oh, I need to be in it.

Jared Callahan:

And I think it made the film way better because I had the time to heal and grow

Jared Callahan:

and then have a little distance from it.

Jared Callahan:

You know, you, it's different if you put down the cameras yesterday

Jared Callahan:

versus give yourself a decade,

Nathan McLean:

you know?

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

With any creative process.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

. Corey Williams: There's this moment

Nathan McLean:

where you were in it and there were, to be honest, there were times where

Nathan McLean:

I wish we saw a little bit more of you because it, it added, it really add.

Nathan McLean:

Some interesting moments to the film and there's this moment where

Nathan McLean:

Cassidy's, it's you're just starting to, um, they're starting to work on,

Nathan McLean:

on the fence and Cassidy has to take on the role of being the director.

Nathan McLean:

And you come up to him and you say like, you are the director here.

Nathan McLean:

Do it direct.

Nathan McLean:

And you're quite firm with him and.

Nathan McLean:

. What I imagine there is, I can imagine all of Cassidy's, uh, sort of self-doubt.

Nathan McLean:

I can imagine.

Nathan McLean:

I, I can relate to, you know, having thought processes that hold you

Nathan McLean:

back from speaking out, from hold you, that hold you back from being

Nathan McLean:

assertive and using your voice.

Nathan McLean:

And sometimes you need someone to like, kind of like give you a push

Nathan McLean:

there and say, this is it, do it.

Nathan McLean:

And you do it sort of as almost like an older brother or a, a, a mentor there.

Nathan McLean:

And, uh, it's a really.

Nathan McLean:

Subtly powerful moment in the, in the movie.

Nathan McLean:

Cuz I just got exactly what was going through Cassidy's head

Nathan McLean:

without you even saying it.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

Cassidy doesn't say what's going through his head.

Nathan McLean:

He doesn't have to, it's written on his face.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

That was really well done.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

I'm glad you caught that.

Jared Callahan:

It was not easy for me to include in the movie, you know, like, that's

Jared Callahan:

part of the hard part about becoming a character in your own film is you

Jared Callahan:

also have to be honest with yourself and I'm not perfect and I have

Jared Callahan:

flaws and things that I, I misstep.

Jared Callahan:

I, my tone, I, I was not nice to him.

Jared Callahan:

But also, like you said, I, I didn't realize, uh, the depth of his anxiety.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

, I think while we were doing it.

Jared Callahan:

And he says it and like, oh, you know, there's a lot of people here.

Jared Callahan:

I don't do good with crowds.

Jared Callahan:

But once we were there, he crumbled.

Jared Callahan:

They won, he crumbled.

Jared Callahan:

And the fact that the rain.

Jared Callahan:

Ga kept giving him pauses to see that as a positive, where he could like, catch

Jared Callahan:

his breath for an hour and then try again.

Jared Callahan:

But he was getting steamrolled.

Jared Callahan:

And so if day two really, if day two had happened, like day one, you couldn't

Jared Callahan:

have put him as a co-director, you know, like it, he, he wasn't doing it.

Jared Callahan:

And, um, it took that moment, a couple other moments and uh, where people just

Jared Callahan:

kind of gave it to him and Josh was.

Jared Callahan:

Josh took control, Josh saw what was going on.

Jared Callahan:

The whole group knew what was going on, not just with Cassidy, with everybody.

Jared Callahan:

So it was kind of more of an all hands on deck approach than other sets would be.

Jared Callahan:

And even the professionals in the Atlanta Film Society that I had hired

Jared Callahan:

to come join, that we had hired to the team, they knew and they were helping.

Jared Callahan:

So they, they were encouraging and, and educating and helping more than

Jared Callahan:

you would a non recovery center crew that you are helping make a film.

Jared Callahan:

The tone was good for him and he did it.

Jared Callahan:

He stepped up day two.

Jared Callahan:

I didn't, we didn't talk to him.

Jared Callahan:

I didn't talk to him night, the night between day one and day two, and he

Jared Callahan:

was really quiet and processing a lot.

Jared Callahan:

But when day two happened and he needed to do it, he did it.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

, and I think that was for him was the real growth.

Jared Callahan:

And I think also in creativity.

Jared Callahan:

You know, you can make a film by yourself and at the end there's

Jared Callahan:

thousands of names, right?

Jared Callahan:

You watch a Marvel movie and there's literally 12 minutes of

Jared Callahan:

thousands of names of people.

Jared Callahan:

It's not, it's a, it's the ultimate team project.

Jared Callahan:

And so I think that Cassidy figuring out like, where else y'all supposed to wanna

Jared Callahan:

be a director cuz it's sexy or whatever.

Jared Callahan:

But that's not, maybe Cassidy, maybe Cas.

Jared Callahan:

is, uh, better as a writer and, and that serves his personality better.

Jared Callahan:

And he can still be a part of the team, but he's not in charge of standing

Jared Callahan:

up in front of, like, in that moment, 30 people in a stressful scenario and

Jared Callahan:

taking control is not in his skillset.

Jared Callahan:

So, yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah,

Nathan McLean:

yeah.

Nathan McLean:

Josh seemed, uh, more inclined towards that.

Jared Callahan:

Yeah, he could, he could do it.

Jared Callahan:

And also that's the team.

Jared Callahan:

There should be a first assistant director.

Jared Callahan:

Directors don't even need to do that.

Jared Callahan:

A first assistant director should be able to stand up and command an army and yell

Jared Callahan:

at 3000 hobbits that are running around in New Zealand, cuz that's their job, right?

Jared Callahan:

Like, that's not, that's not your job.

Jared Callahan:

And at a, at a project, sometimes small, it's not that small as easier,

Jared Callahan:

it's that small as everybody's trying to do everything and it, it

Jared Callahan:

makes it hard in a different way.

Corey Williams:

So.

Corey Williams:

. So Jared, we wanted to ask you about tough love.

Corey Williams:

This is something that we, again, that we've talked about on our show and

Corey Williams:

that we have strong feelings about.

Corey Williams:

You know, that, um, there is a, in media and in like pop culture and pop psychology

Corey Williams:

of, of like that, you, that's what you do.

Corey Williams:

You take tough love with, with the addict.

Corey Williams:

Um, you, you give them the ultimatum and you, in some cases you walk

Corey Williams:

away and we want to sort of speak on, on general terms about.

Corey Williams:

even up here in, in Canada or, or in the states, anywhere, rehab

Corey Williams:

facilities where if you, if you slip or if you relapse, you're out.

Corey Williams:

And this can make for sort of a revolving door style of , right?

Corey Williams:

Uh, style where, where people are coming in and out and in and out every

Corey Williams:

time they relapse, it can leave people isolated and leave them vulnerable.

Corey Williams:

And given your educational background in divinity, I, I wonder how that

Corey Williams:

sits with you and given that you.

Corey Williams:

Are a part of this communal living project where it is very much about

Corey Williams:

connection and about keeping, you know, including individuals and

Corey Williams:

keeping individuals connected.

Corey Williams:

H how does Tough Love sit with you as a, as sort of a model or as a

Corey Williams:

style that has been adopted within the world of addiction treatment?

Corey Williams:

Man, I,

Jared Callahan:

I would always hope that love, love would trump tough

Jared Callahan:

love, but I now have just been in even Cassidy's life long enough to.

Jared Callahan:

How he, I think he says, says in the film that he's realizing that he

Jared Callahan:

is bipolar and then has since been diagnosed and there's a whole separate

Jared Callahan:

conversation about neurodivergent and neurotypical and how does he like who

Jared Callahan:

he is when he's medicated and not right.

Jared Callahan:

That's a whole side of if you feel like you are being dampened and

Jared Callahan:

you are not who you are, that's.

Jared Callahan:

, but noted.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

Cassidy, the, the medicine that ends up helping him find stability

Jared Callahan:

the best is also one of the medications he's addicted to.

Jared Callahan:

So I see now how in even my relationship with Cassidy, how forgiving love that

Jared Callahan:

has allowed behavior to continue that was detrimental to himself, wasn't.

Jared Callahan:

and it wa it felt nice or it was, it felt like love or it was the same action

Jared Callahan:

that could be interpreted as love to someone not struggling with addiction.

Jared Callahan:

It'd be, it has been love my whole life until age 40, . And then I'm doing it

Jared Callahan:

with Cassidy and he's still stealing from me and from this farm selling my

Jared Callahan:

camera equipment and buying drugs with.

Jared Callahan:

and that was three years after we finished filming.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

. So when, that is my experience with being hospitable and helping him

Jared Callahan:

stay and giving a car and a place, a rent and trying to get him jobs.

Jared Callahan:

And like I, we were doing it and, and then through that I

Jared Callahan:

realized, oh, that's overreaching.

Jared Callahan:

I'm not a social worker.

Jared Callahan:

Like I can be a friend and we can provide a community to make things, but

Jared Callahan:

that's two prongs of probably eight or 10 that you need to find real health.

Jared Callahan:

So that's a lot to say.

Jared Callahan:

Love that you can love, love that that can be provided.

Jared Callahan:

And as the character Pete, in their short film that they're making ends up

Jared Callahan:

trying to go high, low guilt, anger, and tries to go every way on a family

Jared Callahan:

that ends up saying, for the first time, I will no longer be your enabler.

Jared Callahan:

And I think that's what I learned from Josh and Cassidy is that until

Jared Callahan:

they were allowed to hit their low, Because their enablers were

Jared Callahan:

no longer gonna bail them out.

Jared Callahan:

Through love provided both sanity for their family and also the

Jared Callahan:

realization that I'm not gonna get healthy for anybody else.

Jared Callahan:

They were very particular that the characters in what we were

Jared Callahan:

writing would never be trying to get sober for a family member.

Jared Callahan:

They just said, until it's for you, it will never happen, and you will

Jared Callahan:

find a way around it or you will dodge it and it will not be, it can't be

Jared Callahan:

for your kids, can't be for a spouse.

Jared Callahan:

They just kept cutting out all these side characters and I realized,

Jared Callahan:

oh, you, Cassidy has, you might need to burn every bridge a couple

Jared Callahan:

times before you realize that who is gonna do what to help you stand.

Jared Callahan:

I'm sorry if that's not the easiest or, uh, a clear answer that's like my

Jared Callahan:

personal has been like, I tried this and I've been burned by it and now burned

Jared Callahan:

by it multiple times and realized for the sanity of the other residents at the

Jared Callahan:

farm, at my family, it was like, okay, well you can no longer steal from me and

Jared Callahan:

how do I still be a support in your web?

Jared Callahan:

Yeah,

Nathan McLean:

that is a, that is an honest, uh, and understandable, uh, very

Nathan McLean:

understandable answer to that question.

Nathan McLean:

And, uh, thank you for providing that and not trying to, you know, tell us

Nathan McLean:

what we want to hear or you bet it, uh, appreciate that because me and Corey were

Nathan McLean:

talking about it before, uh, before this recording, and it's not a, and like you

Nathan McLean:

said, love, love is, uh, is the, that's what we're aiming for all the time.

Nathan McLean:

when it comes to addictive behavior, it's so nuanced and

Nathan McLean:

it's so individual to individual.

Nathan McLean:

I mean, it might not be, maybe drugs are one of Cassidy's problems

Nathan McLean:

and it could be one amongst many.

Nathan McLean:

And it, you know, if you look at, you look at his support system as it is, I

Nathan McLean:

mean, you gotta take in socioeconomic factors and by the time you get

Nathan McLean:

through everything, you, you think to.

Nathan McLean:

man, how much hope would I have?

Nathan McLean:

I was, you know, oh

Nathan McLean:

man,

Jared Callahan:

what you, Cassie?

Jared Callahan:

Cassie is a victim.

Jared Callahan:

Cassie is a victim of the disease, of, of addiction.

Jared Callahan:

And so when I could separate those things and not see the core of who

Jared Callahan:

he is as corrupted or evil or that, that he, the same thing that drew him

Jared Callahan:

to me at the first coffee was that he was a pure goodhearted trying to.

Jared Callahan:

Bring love to the world and care about people.

Jared Callahan:

And if you can continue to believe that no matter what the results of the addiction

Jared Callahan:

has driven your behavior to do or be, and if you can still see separate, I

Jared Callahan:

think that's a huge gift and I hope that that's what Clean Slate is able to do.

Jared Callahan:

Is, it's not easy when it's your person, right?

Jared Callahan:

Like that, the person who came up to us at that test screening, if the

Jared Callahan:

movie had been about her brother, different emotional connections to

Jared Callahan:

your ability to take the story in.

Jared Callahan:

But when a story can offer you deep truths or capital T truth to your own

Jared Callahan:

story, but it comes through someone else's life that you didn't know an hour and a

Jared Callahan:

half ago, sometimes that's the way that, that those deep, deep life changing.

Jared Callahan:

Things can do some work in you or on you, uh, because you kind of got Trojan

Jared Callahan:

Horsed, , like she didn't probably expect to get it the way she did.

Jared Callahan:

And, and it and, and it, it works if you allow it to do work on you.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

That, uh, that's a matter of growth that I think is, is common

Nathan McLean:

in, in the world of addiction.

Nathan McLean:

Um, like you said, that , it's a neat way of putting it, the Trojan horse.

Nathan McLean:

But, uh, yeah, sometimes that's gonna be the only way for some people to

Nathan McLean:

get to a certain point and then, , you know, something else will come along

Nathan McLean:

the line and everybody's at different, uh, kind of spots of understanding,

Nathan McLean:

including myself, including Corey.

Nathan McLean:

I mean, you wanna talk about a complicated subject.

Nathan McLean:

Uh, it's, it's tough to pin down the behavior of addiction, how it's

Nathan McLean:

can be so dependent on the person.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

It's, uh, I guess that's why it's fascinating, fascinating to me.

Nathan McLean:

Anyway.

Nathan McLean:

. Jared Callahan: It's a, it's a tragically

Nathan McLean:

life and commitment and like, and, and continuing to talk about in different

Nathan McLean:

ways because that's the people that we've talked to that have been 20 years

Nathan McLean:

sober just have different elements.

Nathan McLean:

Like it's, it's like they have, someone saw the film last weekend, uh, the

Nathan McLean:

theater and was there for a q and a and shared, and I could see their spouse,

Nathan McLean:

their partner nodding and, and the way that I was listening, but I was.

Nathan McLean:

Someone loving someone who felt seen.

Nathan McLean:

And I, I just realized that when it changes over time and

Nathan McLean:

in every season, something else, uh, might resonate with you.

Nathan McLean:

But I think that's what's special about the human story is just that

Nathan McLean:

there are some that we tell over and over again in different ways.

Nathan McLean:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan McLean:

and when they're told we can relate to them depending on

Nathan McLean:

what season we are currently in.

Nathan McLean:

Absolutely.

Nathan McLean:

But a great statement.

Nathan McLean:

Yeah.

Nathan McLean:

. Yeah, that's been very true for me.

Nathan McLean:

And you as well, Corey.

Nathan McLean:

I think sometimes you're just not ready for the message,

Corey Williams:

but Yeah.

Corey Williams:

Yeah.

Corey Williams:

And you know it as a parent, it, it also, the movie made me think about love

Corey Williams:

with boundaries, that, with a, with a child, in order to love them effectively

Corey Williams:

and, and teach them and, and model good behavior and, and you know, sort of.

Corey Williams:

Guide them along.

Corey Williams:

There have to be boundaries there.

Corey Williams:

And if you don't uphold the boundaries with your child, you're gonna have a child

Corey Williams:

who , who runs your home, a four year old who runs your home and . And, but

Corey Williams:

with, with an adult who's experiencing addiction, who we, who you love, there are

Corey Williams:

so many more complicated feelings at play.

Corey Williams:

And those feelings can make you drop those boundaries, or at least, and

Corey Williams:

that doesn't mean you stop loving them, but when the boundaries come, Are you

Corey Williams:

still loving yourself effectively?

Corey Williams:

Right, right.

Corey Williams:

Like, and, and oh man.

Corey Williams:

And in the film Josh talks about how one of his great heartaches is that

Corey Williams:

his, his wife has moved on and he, he learns that, you know, she, she's, I

Corey Williams:

can't remember if she's remarried or just repartnered, but like remarried.

Corey Williams:

Yeah, remarried and, and how much that hurts him.

Corey Williams:

Found

Jared Callahan:

out on Facebook.

Jared Callahan:

That's, how's that for modern, right.

Jared Callahan:

Oh man.

Corey Williams:

And you kind of think, well, she's obvious.

Corey Williams:

done that.

Corey Williams:

She, she set the boundary, she moved on.

Corey Williams:

It was obviously raw for Josh, but that you also think, well, there's

Corey Williams:

an individual who probably went through a lot of pain and a lot of

Corey Williams:

getting her boundaries tread upon and disappointments and all that stuff.

Corey Williams:

And, um, it kind of, without even knowing the, her as a character, you, I, I kind of

Corey Williams:

thought, well, she set that boundary and she sort of made the self-loving choice,

Corey Williams:

but it's holy smoke, it's complicated.

Corey Williams:

Oh

Jared Callahan:

bad . Uh, I can't imagine having someone that you, uh, as a miracle

Jared Callahan:

as it would be that anybody would marry anybody, uh, that you would allow someone

Jared Callahan:

into that circle of trust with you.

Jared Callahan:

And then, like he says, I just kept, she told me if I, if

Jared Callahan:

I didn't quit, she'd leave.

Jared Callahan:

And he just, the vicious cycle as he describes it is just to, couldn't stop.

Jared Callahan:

So that's what I see.

Jared Callahan:

Like you mentioned a toddler and I've just learned, my wife sometimes wordss

Jared Callahan:

me like, uh, Instagram parenting tips.

Jared Callahan:

Cuz you know, when you're dealing with a toddler, you're just like, just.

Jared Callahan:

Freaking scream, but one of the ones that she said was really

Jared Callahan:

helpful was like, they, uh, my son only has one emotion at a time.

Jared Callahan:

There's not layered, there's not nuance.

Jared Callahan:

He, he, when he's on something, he's on it and sometimes I just

Jared Callahan:

won't understand why the emotion is so what, whatever it be, right.

Jared Callahan:

Angry or scared, or whatever it is.

Jared Callahan:

And I see that also in dealing with Josh and Cassidy, not in a pejorative

Jared Callahan:

way, like, oh, you're a toddler, but in what addiction can do, there was nothing

Jared Callahan:

else happening either you're using your same body, you're still dressed

Jared Callahan:

the same, you're using all the words you have, but you are doing one thing.

Jared Callahan:

at this time, and I don't think I could see, I know I didn't see

Jared Callahan:

that in early relationship, and I don't think I could still see that.

Jared Callahan:

I'm not a trained therapist or a doctor.

Jared Callahan:

I don't know all the tells, and I'm in a couple years of

Jared Callahan:

relationship with these guys.

Jared Callahan:

There's so much more to do.

Jared Callahan:

But I see it in what I'm learning as a parent is to just see my son and realize

Jared Callahan:

it's not, what he's doing is not who he is, and it's not a value statement,

Jared Callahan:

and it's not a judgment on who you are.

Jared Callahan:

You are being controlled by one thing upfront, and I will deal with that.

Jared Callahan:

. And so like you said, I think that the tough love or the boundaries and seeing

Jared Callahan:

that with Cassidy, I kind of talked to Cassidy that way by the end was like,

Jared Callahan:

that's not not who I wanna be, not how I wanna act, but I will kindly talk to

Jared Callahan:

your diction in this moment because I'm not talking to you, the core of you.

Jared Callahan:

And that's sometimes is the whole of an interaction and gets us to where maybe

Jared Callahan:

we get to have another and is more.

Jared Callahan:

So,

Nathan McLean:

yeah, we have a term for that.

Nathan McLean:

We call it, uh, front loaded thinking.

Nathan McLean:

Um, and, uh, there, there is science behind it.

Nathan McLean:

And basically what's happening is the same thing that's happening with

Nathan McLean:

your toddler only on a, a little bit different scale, but it's, it's, uh,

Nathan McLean:

you're right to say that it's a one way of thinking because that's exactly

Nathan McLean:

what's going on in the brain when you, when you hone in on a behavior like

Nathan McLean:

that, it's like forming a habit times a.

Nathan McLean:

And your habit becomes a compulsion.

Nathan McLean:

It's not impossible for you not to do it, but you feel very

Nathan McLean:

motivated to do the behavior.

Nathan McLean:

Right.

Nathan McLean:

So it's, uh, interesting comparison with your, with your toddler and how

Nathan McLean:

they experience one emotion at a time.

Nathan McLean:

I'm gonna have to think on

Corey Williams:

that for a little bit.

Corey Williams:

The one last thing I would add to that is I think, you know, on a, you know,

Corey Williams:

on a personal level, you wouldn't continue to repeat the same enabling

Corey Williams:

behavior or the same pattern of behavior with the individual who's treading on

Corey Williams:

your boundaries or whatever it may be.

Corey Williams:

Right?

Corey Williams:

But what we do see is, is with our system up here, with our sy, our addictions

Corey Williams:

treatment systems, probably in the states too, where there's, it seems to be.

Corey Williams:

It's clearly not working, but we're just gonna keep doing the same thing

Corey Williams:

over and, and where someone can end up in a facility a dozen times.

Corey Williams:

And I, my my sincere hope is that at some point the facility or the,

Corey Williams:

the system is saying, we gotta look at how we're doing this.

Jared Callahan:

The, the fact that, I mean, you're into politics and the way

Jared Callahan:

that people are out for their pockets and, and power and not for health of

Jared Callahan:

our people, the way that we've protected corporations that have done billions

Jared Callahan:

of dollars of intentional addiction.

Jared Callahan:

And so like, this has been really shitty for a really long time

Jared Callahan:

and it's not a lot of hope that it's gonna turn around quickly.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

So there are a group of people, some opportunists and some doing some good.

Jared Callahan:

That are using a system that frankly they, the prison industrial complex, they're

Jared Callahan:

just full like that is getting offered to people in Georgia when I was there

Jared Callahan:

because there are no more beds in prisons.

Jared Callahan:

They would rather put them in prison for 10 years, but because there's no beds,

Jared Callahan:

they found places that they can plea out.

Jared Callahan:

They can go do 18 months and have it erased and that also is insane.

Jared Callahan:

Then you get into employ.

Jared Callahan:

and what you can do and how people can work for you.

Jared Callahan:

And it's kind of slave labor.

Jared Callahan:

It's not kind of, it is a, oh yeah.

Jared Callahan:

We, from slave labor, from it, it, it is a modified treatment of slave labor.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

, uh, in prison since slave le slavery was abolished in the United States.

Jared Callahan:

Like, it is not great.

Jared Callahan:

So you are, you to say it's not great is an understatement.

Jared Callahan:

and, and it is not, not great.

Jared Callahan:

So yes, I hope there and there are places I've.

Jared Callahan:

In post relationship there and, and touring the film around.

Jared Callahan:

There are places that are doing more holistic con uh, work.

Jared Callahan:

There are places that are partnering people with, uh, psychiatrists and

Jared Callahan:

job training and like, there's all these things that I could see were

Jared Callahan:

stacked against Cassidy in the film.

Jared Callahan:

Like you said, e economic status and there's all these things.

Jared Callahan:

Mm-hmm.

Jared Callahan:

and it's just like you couldn't get hired at Starbucks or Taco Bell or

Jared Callahan:

Chick-Fil-A, like get outta here.

Jared Callahan:

You're six years from a D U I and you couldn't get hired to, to

Jared Callahan:

deliver pizzas in a car by yourself.

Jared Callahan:

That was, that was outrageous.

Jared Callahan:

So there are some systematic things that need to change in order to provide

Jared Callahan:

people who are genuinely trying to get sober, the best tools they have to get.

Jared Callahan:

Healthy and it feels like in some ways people are squeaking

Jared Callahan:

through and doing good . People are finding places to do good.

Jared Callahan:

People are proponents of other systems and ways of health, and then there

Jared Callahan:

are some really big systems that are just not good and that I've got to

Jared Callahan:

do multiple years in one and to not have it be my life or training to be

Jared Callahan:

able to walk away and be like, whoa.

Jared Callahan:

Okay.

Jared Callahan:

Some good.

Jared Callahan:

Lot of not good.

Jared Callahan:

Thank goodness for anybody who's sober today and hopeful today and

Jared Callahan:

has a network today and is trying.

Jared Callahan:

And that, you know, that's my, that's clean slate's pocket, small pocket in

Jared Callahan:

the corner of the world of recovery.

Jared Callahan:

Right now.

Jared Callahan:

It's like you need, you need a, you need to be seen today.

Jared Callahan:

Maybe that's what it offers, you know?

Jared Callahan:

Yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Tell

Corey Williams:

our listeners where they can find Clean Slate.

Jared Callahan:

Yvette, uh, the, the Clean Slate film.com has everything

Jared Callahan:

about the film, the short film that they made, the updates about the

Jared Callahan:

guys, the Clean Slate film.com.

Jared Callahan:

Our foundation is people People media.com, people people media.com, and that's got

Jared Callahan:

links to all our short films for free and are now three feature films on there.

Jared Callahan:

But that's where we do everything.

Jared Callahan:

And then Instagram, I'm Jared underscore cow.

Jared Callahan:

And people, people, media is on Instagram, so we try and filter everything through

Jared Callahan:

that, that website and that Instagram so people can find what we make.

Nathan McLean:

Oh, that's great.

Nathan McLean:

Wonderful talking to you man.

Nathan McLean:

Very appreciative of you taking the time to, uh, chat with us and

Nathan McLean:

I'm glad we could make it work.

Nathan McLean:

And, uh, yeah, we'll definitely let you know as soon as we, uh, get

Nathan McLean:

this one, uh, up on air and yeah, keep doing what you're doing, man.

Nathan McLean:

Lots of, I appreciate it.

Nathan McLean:

Creative, creative

Jared Callahan:

things down there.

Jared Callahan:

My pleasure.

Jared Callahan:

Thanks for, thanks for doing what you do and it being, uh, other, other corners of

Jared Callahan:

other pockets providing help for people.

Jared Callahan:

I'm, I'm thankful that the movie exists and I hope people see it.

Jared Callahan:

That's why we did it.

Jared Callahan:

That's, that's why, that's why it exists.

Jared Callahan:

, right?

Jared Callahan:

So, yeah.

Jared Callahan:

Thank you both so much.

Jared Callahan:

I appreciate your, Okay.

Jared Callahan:

Thank you, jar.

Corey Williams:

Pleasure.

Corey Williams:

Like this.

Corey Williams:

Bye.

Corey Williams:

Have, have a good one

Corey Williams:

guys.

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Recovery Machine Podcast
Discourse on drug addiction, drug policy, addiction treatment, and recovery.

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Nathan McLean