G-D3GDY1Q4CX Book Report 1 - Recovery Machine Podcast
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Book Report 1

Drug addiction-related books are presented and discussed. We talk about the impact of each title on our understanding of addiction and our growth as human beings.

#addictionbooks #drugaddictionbooks #addictionliterature #recoverybooks

Corey's books:

Embers: One Ojibway’s Meditations by Richard Wagamese

The Whole Brain Child by Daniel Siegel M.D. and Tina Payne Bryson PhD

Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving. A guide and Map for recovering from Childhood Trauma by Pete Walker

Nathan's books:

The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley

Unbroken Brain: A Revolutionary New Way of Understanding Addiction by Maia Szalavitz

Addiction: A Disorder of Choice by Gene M. Heyman

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Transcript
Nathan:

Welcome everybody to a recovery machine.

Nathan:

We're back after the break and somewhere in between Christmas and New Year's,

Nathan:

we're both feeling a little slower than usual here, probably from tons

Nathan:

and tons of sugar, I would imagine.

Nathan:

, that's what it is.

Nathan:

sugar and no exercise.

Nathan:

But, uh, we're gonna do our best here today.

Nathan:

So it's me, Nathan, again, and, uh, joined as always by cohost

Nathan:

Corey, how are you doing, Corey?

Corey:

Good morning.

Corey:

Good morning.

Corey:

I'm doing well.

Corey:

You know, to our credit, Nathan, this is one of our, the earliest sessions

Corey:

we've ever, uh, met for, so we'll cut ourselves a little slack there.

Corey:

10 o'clock Pacific time, so, um, but yeah, it's good to see you.

Corey:

You had a good, uh, good, good Christmas break and, uh, yeah.

Corey:

So what we're gonna do today, we're gonna do something a little bit different.

Corey:

You know, we often talk about books that we're reading, talk about it with

Corey:

each other, talk about it in meetings, um, and we thought it would be kind

Corey:

of a fun idea to highlight a few of the books that we read and were impacted by

Corey:

particularly early on in, in our recovery, um, that we think might be helpful,

Corey:

that we think, you know, could, uh, our listeners, whether or not you are in the

Corey:

position that we were in, that, that it could be beneficial to you in your life.

Corey:

Um, we also, you know, when we were first talking about this, I, I wanted to

Corey:

set the challenge for you that if we're gonna do this, that means no gabo mate.

Corey:

That means no Maia Szalavitz, no Carl Hart, none of the sort of the

Corey:

big names that you would expect.

Corey:

Cuz I would, I would assume that a lot of our readers ha are, a lot of our

Corey:

listeners have read some of those people.

Corey:

Those people are wonderful.

Corey:

But let's sort of see what else we can, we can dig up.

Nathan:

Okay.

Nathan:

I forgot that we were talking, uh, about, uh, leaving out those ones.

Nathan:

Uh, and I, I have Did you . That's okay.

Nathan:

I have, uh, I have one that I am currently reading, actually suggested by

Nathan:

our friend Peter over in, uh, Ontario.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And, uh, it was a great suggestion.

Nathan:

It's brand new hot off the press.

Nathan:

Um, and, uh, I could discuss that one instead.

Nathan:

Okay.

Nathan:

If you're

Corey:

sure then, uh, then yeah, let's go for it.

Nathan:

Yeah, I, well, I think I'll, I'll have to at least mention how this

Nathan:

works as far as, uh, I've got it in kind of a impact order here, but, uh, okay.

Nathan:

I will, uh, adjust on the fly.

Nathan:

Okay.

Corey:

So would you, uh, you, you can choose.

Corey:

Do you wanna start or do you wanna pass

Corey:

? Nathan: I, I could start, um, My, the,

Corey:

a disorder of Choice, and that one is by Gene M Heyman it's one of the

Corey:

first books that I ran into when, uh, I, I started to, most of my problems

Corey:

occurred and began in, in 2011.

Corey:

And then once I realized that, uh, a lot of the information I was getting

Corey:

from professionals and, and, uh, experts seemed to be misleading or contradictory,

Corey:

and, uh, it was then that I decided, well, let's learn as much as I can

Corey:

about this, and maybe I can figure out some of my, my own way through it.

Corey:

So, his book Addiction, it's a disorder of choice.

Corey:

Uh, right here, that's the guy for the video people.

Corey:

It's, I think it's about a dozen years old now, something like that.

Corey:

But, The reason it was important for me is because it was the first time

Corey:

that I saw somebody put together what appears to be bigger, uh, a bigger

Corey:

collection of studies, studies that are higher powered, um, and less, less

Corey:

suspect than the ones many of the, like, say the DSM five uses a certain

Corey:

kind of standard to define addiction.

Corey:

And then it goes on to sort of back that standard up as far as, uh, its,

Corey:

its ability or its power to diagnose individuals by using studies that

Corey:

are mostly, if not all, taken from people who have been in treatment or

Corey:

sought out, treat them themselves.

Corey:

So they, that right there is actually the sticking point because they

Corey:

use that data and then extrapolate from that to the whole population.

Corey:

And I don't believe that that was, I don't think it was meant

Corey:

as a, uh, to obfuscate the facts.

Corey:

I just, I, I don't think the data was available at the time that,

Corey:

uh, even during the, the last, the latest version of the DSM five.

Corey:

Um, I could be wrong about that.

Corey:

But regardless, what I found in this book was that this idea of, uh,

Corey:

powerlessness where, you know, you go to, when I went to treatment, it

Corey:

was, it was, there were several things that I had, uh, uh, trouble with.

Corey:

But one of them was the fact that I was being told that I had

Corey:

no power over this situation.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. And that just didn't make sense to me for multiple reasons why I was there.

Corey:

At the same time, I knew there was a compuls, there was a, uh, compulsory

Corey:

component to being addicted to drugs.

Corey:

Something had happened in my ability to control the situation.

Corey:

That was true.

Corey:

, but at the same time I was still able to make decisions.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

So I, I was in that gray area without any information and this was the first

Corey:

time I came along and saw, oh wow, this guy is actually, he's, he's done

Corey:

an excellent job of putting together.

Corey:

He like, he, he points out four huge studies in particular that demonstrate

Corey:

that by far the most, uh, likely scenario for somebody who is having trouble with

Corey:

drugs or alcohol is that they remit, and it's not a remitting relapsing situation.

Corey:

It's usually most people in their twenties and thirties, uh, that's when the,

Corey:

the majority of these problems happen.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

and once they've, uh, addressed whatever motivating factor was

Corey:

involved, or maybe they've moved on and they have new life responsibilities

Corey:

that are putting pressure on them.

Corey:

, they don't have the time to maybe party as much as before, whatever it may be.

Corey:

They don't stay in that same addictive behavior pattern.

Corey:

They find a way out of it.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

and the vast, vast majority do it without treatment or any intervention at all.

Corey:

And it's not even close.

Corey:

It's, it's about 75% across the board if you want to take every, every

Corey:

substance that people normally have problems with, uh, you know, going as

Corey:

far as like, uh, alcohol, cannabis, and then up towards the harder drugs.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. So yeah, that was the, that was the impact it had.

Corey:

It o what it did is it, it made me believe that I wasn't completely

Corey:

crazy and that maybe there was more to this than I was being told.

Corey:

It's not a what, uh, what we had planned on doing here was, uh, reading a quote

Corey:

after the introduction of the book in this one, it's, it's a pretty technical book.

Corey:

There's not a lot in here that's, uh, gonna be nice pros for a quote.

Corey:

So what I would recommend people do is even if they want to take a quick

Corey:

look, uh, and just go over the, uh, graphs, that's what I would, uh,

Corey:

I would point people towards that.

Corey:

It's absolutely worth the read.

Corey:

And if you haven't seen or aren't aware of how much of a disparity there is between

Corey:

what mainstream medicine says about the condition of addiction and, and what

Corey:

these bigger, more representative studies that, uh, were done around 2000 to 2010

Corey:

ish, um, if you're not aware of what they're saying, I would highly recommend

Corey:

that you, you check this book out.

Corey:

So it's addiction, a disorder of choice.

Corey:

It's not a long read, but it's a bit of a slow read because, uh, yeah,

Corey:

depending on your ability to kinda sort through trials and studies.

Corey:

But, uh, yeah, an excellent book and I think that.

Corey:

. If you look at most of the authors after Gene M Heyman they will have him listed

Corey:

as a, uh, a reference in their titles.

Corey:

So that's, uh, that's the first one I wanted to mention.

Corey:

I wanted to ask you anything, you, me, I mean, you mentioned that book in,

Corey:

I think the, your introductory episode or maybe even my introductory episode.

Corey:

It was in, within the first two or three episodes of our, of our podcast.

Corey:

You, you mentioned that book.

Corey:

At what point were you, had you already been to inpatient treatment

Corey:

and did you read that book after,

Nathan:

after the fact?

Nathan:

It was after, yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah, because, uh, it was the, when I came outta treatment, I was pretty

Nathan:

disorientated and I, I, I needed to know if, you know, if what they were saying was

Nathan:

true in treatment, then my entire kind.

Nathan:

Like, I had to make large scale adjustments to many kind of ways that

Nathan:

I had viewed the situation before.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

and I needed to make large scale adjustments anyway, so it would've

Nathan:

been, I think it would've kicked my legs out from me a little harder

Nathan:

had I not been able to dig into this stuff and see that, oh, okay.

Nathan:

It's not, it's not that black and white at all.

Nathan:

It's quite subtle and many people are struggling to, you know, find a

Nathan:

definition, even a workable definition for a diagnoses of addiction.

Nathan:

So it gave me some hope is what it did.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

that conversation about powerlessness.

Corey:

I mean, we could go on and on about that.

Corey:

And it, and it, of course, the 12 step model is, is deeply rooted

Corey:

in, in that notion of, of, of kind of admitting powerlessness.

Corey:

But, and if, if people grapple with that and they, and it, and it works for

Corey:

them, fair enough, but like, uh, Again, it's, it's such a vulnerable time.

Corey:

And like you said, when you were in, in that inpatient treatment center,

Corey:

without having read that book, without having kind of been validated

Corey:

about, about what was going on with you or seek getting that clarity,

Corey:

it's like you're, you're vulnerable.

Corey:

You're looking for some answers.

Corey:

And I think a lot of people would probably just accept that as face at face value

Nathan:

and Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And a lot did, but there were others there who had already kind of been down

Nathan:

the path and they could see that it was a lot of, it was kind of bullshit.

Nathan:

Right.

Nathan:

Or just answers that were, here's an easy answer for you.

Nathan:

And if you ask any questions, you're not, yeah.

Nathan:

You're not gonna get any further information.

Nathan:

In fact, you're gonna get, uh, shut down for relapse behavior.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

So that was a, that was, I mean, maybe.

Nathan:

If the facilitators in that place had been a little more forthcoming or willing to

Nathan:

talk about why they thought that that was the, the case, and it may be the case for

Nathan:

them, that they felt entirely powerless.

Nathan:

And I believe that there is something to be said for people who have

Nathan:

problems with alcohol, particularly because it's the, the nature of it

Nathan:

is that it goes after your ability to make a judgment call immediately.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

So I think it's, it, it does have an element of powerlessness to it that is

Nathan:

maybe a little greater than some of the other ones in a different kinda way.

Nathan:

If you under, you know, if you can follow that.

Corey:

I do.

Corey:

And in fact, one of the, my second book that I will talk about today very much

Corey:

supports sort of the same conversation and like how, how the way we think

Corey:

about an issue or, or a problem that we're having or an addiction directly

Corey:

impacts our behavior around it and, and how we, how we face it, you know,

Corey:

so our, our thinking and our language are our instrumental obviously.

Nathan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan:

So what was your, uh, I think you're going in the same kind of, uh,

Nathan:

chronological or, or impact order as I am.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

Chronological order for me too.

Corey:

So, when, when I encountered each of these books, um, and the first book is

Corey:

a, is, I don't wanna say it's simple, but it's, it's, um, it's not a sort of

Corey:

a heavy science based statistical book.

Corey:

It's, it's Embers by Richard Wagamese and Holy Smokes.

Corey:

I mean, there's so much I can say about this book.

Corey:

So, first of all, it was about, um, a month into, not even a month I

Corey:

don't think, into being off work.

Corey:

And I'm sitting at home and I've got, you know, nothing but time on

Corey:

my hands and I'm just, you know, ringing my hands in uncertainty and

Corey:

just really distressed and stressed.

Corey:

And my, my cousin Jane shouted it to Jane from, uh, Ontario.

Corey:

Um, Sent me this book in the mail.

Corey:

And Richard Wagamese is a, a, was a, um, an indigenous Canadian author and poet.

Corey:

Um, he wrote for the TV show, north of 60.

Corey:

He wrote, uh, the book called Indian Horse, which then became a, a movie,

Corey:

which is actually on Netflix, I think.

Corey:

And he wrote these poetry books.

Corey:

And what it did for me, and I, I'll read you one or two examples at that time

Corey:

when my mind was so busy and so filled with uncertainty and so filled with

Corey:

worry, and particularly at nighttime, I've talked about this, that for me,

Corey:

nighttime when you know the lights are off and it's silent in my place,

Corey:

that's the most difficult time for me.

Corey:

Particularly.

Corey:

It was the most difficult time, um, early on, and that's when my mind would race.

Corey:

And I, I just, I could just get carried away.

Corey:

And I hadn't learned all of the tools and ways to kind of get myself grounded.

Corey:

So I really found being able to put my attention towards something.

Corey:

Short and simple and like digestible that if I was feeling anxious

Corey:

or feeling stressed, that would just ground me and center me.

Corey:

That did a lot for me.

Corey:

Like a, like a piece of music or a familiar song could, or like a, you

Corey:

know, watching a certain show that kind of just like brings you back to zero.

Corey:

But, but because Richard Wagony had lived experience, um, with addiction, with a

Corey:

very difficult, challenging life, that's the perspective that he's speaking from

Corey:

someone who's been through the mud mm-hmm.

Corey:

And, and gained some, some peace.

Corey:

Richard also, by the way, was from, lived in Kamloops,

Corey:

British Columbia, so Oh crazy.

Corey:

I'm a relatively local, local person for.

Corey:

And, um, yeah, it was just really beautiful and it was stuff

Corey:

that I could like kind of mull over and, and read and reread.

Corey:

Um, a couple of these things I've read in my smart recovery meetings.

Corey:

I think I read one of them in, uh, in our caduceus meeting once.

Corey:

And yeah, so I'll, I'll read you one here.

Corey:

And they're just, they're very, they're all very, very short and,

Corey:

and extremely, extremely sweet.

Corey:

And, uh, this book, embers has broken into little, little passages about

Corey:

stillness, harmony, trust, reverence, persistence, gratitude, and joy,

Nathan:

which are

Corey:

interesting values to sort of reflect upon.

Corey:

So this one goes like this.

Corey:

Watching morning break, I realized again that darkness doesn't

Corey:

kill the light, it defines it.

Corey:

I believe that now for years I didn't, I believe that it was my failures, mistakes,

Corey:

misjudgments, shortcomings and wrongs.

Corey:

But I'm not those things.

Corey:

I am the light that shines from my faith, my courage, my willingness

Corey:

to be vulnerable, and to be responsible and to be accountable.

Corey:

Moments of darkness.

Corey:

Only highlight that truth.

Corey:

These days.

Corey:

I'm moving beyond my shame.

Corey:

I'm basking in the light of my own recovery and the brilliance

Corey:

that comes from allowing myself to be seen as I am warts and all.

Corey:

I'm not just those warts either.

Corey:

I'm the frog who wears them gradually becoming the prince.

Corey:

So that's that.

Corey:

And I guess I'll ask you first, how does that, how does

Nathan:

that hit you?

Nathan:

Well, it's a pretty remarkable, uh, piece of writing there, just, uh,

Nathan:

for me personally, because he's, he's talking about vulnerability.

Nathan:

Uh, he is talking about faith.

Nathan:

Uh, these are things that, uh, those are two of my primary

Nathan:

tenants that the, especially the, the vulnerability one came later.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. But it was, it was tied into.

Nathan:

Accepting the darkness and actually seeking it out sometimes.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

in, in some ways, and realizing that we don't just grow in the light.

Nathan:

Uh, in fact the biggest leaps sometimes are made in the darkness, and it, it

Nathan:

caused, I think of him reconciling this reality as a place that is

Nathan:

designed to facilitate struggle.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. And I think that there's a way to embrace it that is hopefully not overwhelming

Nathan:

and doesn't end in, I mean, there is such a thing as struggling too hard, right?

Nathan:

If somebody ends their life because they're, they're trapped in the

Nathan:

darkness and they can't see their way out, obviously that's, you

Nathan:

know, you can get esoteric about it.

Nathan:

But for our purposes, I think that we would call that a, a tragedy.

Nathan:

. But, uh, from my experience, it's been, you know, there's

Nathan:

two ways to look at that.

Nathan:

And there's, if we try to take it as something that we're going to spend

Nathan:

a lot of time fighting against, as in, I don't want to be a bad person.

Nathan:

I don't want to think about the things that I did wrong.

Nathan:

I don't want to, I want to distance myself from the darker sides of myself

Nathan:

and only focus on the good and the, you know, the more noble aspects of me.

Nathan:

And, um, there's many traps in there.

Nathan:

And, uh, it, mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, it seems that, that he's kind of trying to articulate his growth in, in, in

Nathan:

that process and, and his increase in understanding and maybe seeing

Nathan:

himself as more of a whole and seeing the world as more of a, let's see, of

Nathan:

course it's more nuanced, but it's not as simple as just, you know, gritting

Nathan:

and grinding it your way through and trying to always do the right thing.

Nathan:

I think it's about staying open and seeing yourself as, uh, I mean, we're

Nathan:

all flawed beings, but that's the, that's kind of the point, you know?

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And, and maybe that's what he was driving at there.

Corey:

Yeah, I agree.

Corey:

And in, for anyone who is, has experienced, um, starting out and

Corey:

having to attend a meeting, like a, uh, any kind of support group, a recovery

Corey:

support group, or a 12 step meeting or a grief support, anything like that,

Corey:

it's terrifying those first few times.

Corey:

And you think I'm gonna have to, you're hearing people tell their stories and

Corey:

you think, oh my God, , I've gotta, like, how much do I have to tell here?

Corey:

And, and at first, I think typically from my experience and what I've observed is

Corey:

that people are, you know, tell a v very kind of guarded version of their story or

Corey:

what they're comfortable with initially.

Corey:

And then as they, as they get more comfortable, maybe they

Corey:

share more and they open up and.

Corey:

I think the really special thing about those communities can happen when, um,

Corey:

when people look at their vulnerabilities, look at their, again, shortcomings that

Corey:

he's, he's sort of redefining them as not being, he's not owned by his failures.

Corey:

He's, he's growing out of them and, and remodeling and mm-hmm.

Corey:

, uh, and when you can see that happening in a, in a community and when the

Corey:

other members of the community are, are supporting the person who's,

Corey:

who's being vulnerable in that, it's just, there's nothing like it

Corey:

that I've ever experienced before.

Corey:

And, um, that's where I think like everyone should be a, needs to

Corey:

be a part of a community that's just such a basic human need and a

Corey:

community that hears them and, and where they can be that vulnerable.

Corey:

And I, I wish I, it didn't take me into sort of coming through

Corey:

addiction and coming out the other side to, to learn that, but that's

Corey:

the mo one of the most beautiful things that I've learned in this.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah, I agree.

Nathan:

It's something that's, Completely missing from our mainstream kinda

Nathan:

way of living here in the west.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

We, uh, it just, you know, it's the individualistic, uh, achievement style.

Nathan:

I don't need anybody to, to win kind of attitude and I don't know.

Nathan:

Yeah, we've lost it for quite a while, but when you see it working, like you

Nathan:

said, I mean, when you get a group that has gotten to that point where

Nathan:

everybody knows that everybody's on the, on the same page mm-hmm.

Nathan:

and there's, there's a level of openness there that probably not a lot of people

Nathan:

experience, you know, maybe Oh yeah.

Nathan:

If they're lucky, they would experience it with their spouse or

Nathan:

their best friend type of thing.

Nathan:

But other than that, and even those people might not understand if it's something

Nathan:

that's, you know, emotionally significant or you know, one of those experiences

Nathan:

that you have to go through to understand.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

So, yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a great one, man.

Nathan:

I like it a little bit different.

Corey:

Thank you.

Corey:

What you got for number two?

Nathan:

Well, I'm, what I'm gonna do here is I'm just gonna give a, uh,

Nathan:

I'm gonna give a quick hat tip to Maya because we all know how I feel

Nathan:

about her and that, uh, you know,

Nathan:

I have a shrine and all that kind of stuff.

Nathan:

No, I don't have a shrine, but she's, uh, I don't have a shrine folks.

Nathan:

She's, uh, she's a genius is what she is.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

She's a legitimate genius.

Nathan:

And unbroken brain may have saved my life, so I can't, and I don't know if that's,

Nathan:

I honestly don't know how dramatic I'm being there because I was, I was way into,

Nathan:

uh, I had, you know, gotten to a point where I was very isolated, very alone.

Nathan:

And, uh, when you get down into the darkness like that, , she

Nathan:

was her book on Broken Brain.

Nathan:

A revolutionary new way of understanding addiction was the one that, uh, and I've

Nathan:

talked about it many times, and I mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, I still smile thinking about the fact that we actually had her on the show.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, what an amazing experience.

Nathan:

And so Grateful . It's just one of the coolest things ever.

Nathan:

But, um, yeah, I'll just read a, uh, uh, well, I'll say first that what

Nathan:

she did is she made me understand in a way that nobody else, she

Nathan:

put together a cohesive piece of writing that shows you definitively

Nathan:

what is going on in your brain.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. And that's what I wanted to know.

Nathan:

It made sense.

Nathan:

It was backed up by science and it was just beautifully written.

Nathan:

If you haven't read that book and you're wondering what's going on with, uh,

Nathan:

you wanna see somebody who understands addiction on a deep level have said it

Nathan:

before, but you gotta read Unbroken Brain.

Nathan:

I'll read just a, a little bit here, please.

Nathan:

Fundamentally, addiction is a learning disorder.

Nathan:

There are three critical elements to it.

Nathan:

The behavior has a psychological purpose.

Nathan:

The specific learning pathways involved make it become nearly automatic

Nathan:

and compulsive, and it doesn't stop when it is no longer adaptive.

Nathan:

So she takes those three and goes wide open on them and backs 'em up.

Nathan:

And the, but that's the, the bones of it since the experience of having her on

Nathan:

and, and all everything we've done there.

Nathan:

And with that little piece there, is that, is that something that's evolving?

Nathan:

Is it something that, uh, you know, what's your thoughts on that, Corey?

Corey:

Well, she's answering the question there that so many particularly

Corey:

loved ones of someone with addiction ask, like, why can't they just stop?

Corey:

And why a question that, why many people in, in active addiction asks themselves

Corey:

like, We, I, we knew, we knew that it wasn't working for us, like in the, in

Corey:

the large scheme of things, that it was no longer, uh, an effective adaptation.

Corey:

It was for a period of time in terms of like debt, getting through that

Corey:

acute stress or whatever it was, whatever was happening in our heads.

Corey:

But then I could certainly see that like, this is no longer an effective

Corey:

behavior for, for me to pursue, but like, why can't I change that?

Corey:

So that's what she's exploring there and, and answering.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And, and it's, uh, . If you don't have that, that piece of understanding of

Nathan:

the puzzle, then I think what happens is you become, you're just, you don't have

Nathan:

a foundation on which to stand against many of these wild ideas that, that get

Nathan:

tossed around and backed up over the years without any, any science and ideas that

Nathan:

don't make a lot of sense intuitively.

Nathan:

You know, you think about it and you're like, well, , it's

Nathan:

not exactly like that, you know?

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, that's, that doesn't really define it for me.

Nathan:

Or there's more to it that's not being discussed.

Nathan:

How come we can't discuss it further?

Nathan:

You know?

Nathan:

And that's what she does.

Nathan:

Yep.

Nathan:

She, this is a, you know, uh, a brilliant mind that goes deep after

Nathan:

experiencing, you know, being chronically and compulsively addicted to cocaine

Nathan:

and, uh, heroin, and then mm-hmm.

Nathan:

you know, figures it all out in rapid , uh, a crazy fast period of time.

Nathan:

Uh, and then, uh, is able to, I mean, the amount of her volume,

Nathan:

her output of writing on the subject matter is staggering.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, but, uh, yeah.

Nathan:

Amazing woman.

Nathan:

So that's, uh, that's my hot tip to her.

Nathan:

And yeah.

Nathan:

I'm sorry.

Nathan:

I, I don't, uh, we probably talked about not having the, the regular

Nathan:

books in there, but That's

Corey:

okay.

Corey:

Do you wanna do your, your another one too?

Nathan:

Yeah, I can.

Nathan:

Uh, I'll, I'll finish, I'll do my next one, and then I'm going to, I'll talk

Nathan:

briefly about the one I'm reading now.

Nathan:

Okay, cool.

Nathan:

Yeah, so we'll move it back to you, sir.

Nathan:

Okay.

Corey:

So mine is a, another, another curve ball sort of, um, in that it's

Corey:

not about addiction, it's not about recovery, but it is a about, about our

Corey:

brains, and that's what we're ultimately what we're trying to answer here.

Corey:

Uh, and it's, it's the Whole Brain Child by Dan Siegel and Tina Payne, Bryson,

Corey:

Dan Siegel's, a very well known, um, psychologist and child psychologist,

Corey:

and has written a number of really, sort of, um, instrumental parenting books.

Corey:

And you're, you're gonna say, well, why, why are we talking

Corey:

about a parenting book here?

Corey:

Corey?

Corey:

Well, I read this, um, fairly early on in recovery, and then my, one of my

Corey:

counselors was, um, had recommended it to me as well, so, , I mean, in short,

Corey:

the whole brain child, it's, it's, he's, he's talking about four children.

Corey:

How they, you know, the pathway between right and left brain, um, is

Corey:

underdeveloped in between lower and higher brain is, is underdeveloped.

Corey:

So when a child gets into the state of, um, of emotional distress or stress,

Corey:

they aren't able to regulate that.

Corey:

And, uh, and they go from, you know, from the basement to the

Corey:

upstairs , you know, rapidly.

Corey:

And so the idea is that you, you sort of take them out of that environment, help

Corey:

them to kind of recenter and to calm down before the, you know, the lesson is

Corey:

taught or before the behavior changes.

Corey:

Where it applied to me was Dan Siegel talks about the wheel of awareness.

Corey:

And, and the uses the term mind site.

Corey:

So if you imagine, uh, your awareness, all of the things in your life that you,

Corey:

that you put your attention towards, your career, your family, being off

Corey:

of work, your addictive behavior, your money, stress, your diet and exercise,

Corey:

any of those things, grief, those are around the outside of the wheel.

Corey:

And then on the inside of the wheel is your, is is sort of

Corey:

your, your mind where you are.

Corey:

It's the hub as he calls it.

Corey:

And so if you're always pointing to your addictive behavior or your, how much

Corey:

you hate your damn job and your boss and your anxiety or your symptoms of P

Corey:

T S D or your symptoms of depression, that that in of course changes how

Corey:

your, your mind, how your perspective on the middle, um, I is impacted.

Corey:

And so that in fact we require a much more balanced wheel of perspective and, and

Corey:

need to ensure that we are putting our attention onto things that also create

Corey:

some balance and that create, give us a, a perspective of, of better health.

Corey:

So, and this is where, you know, thinking about recovery, um, recovery burnout

Corey:

is a common, a common term that I, I have heard, it's something that I felt

Corey:

probably in the first two months where it was like, you have to go to, you

Corey:

know, because you're in the monitoring agreement, you have to go to what

Corey:

works out to be four meetings a week plus therapy, plus a rehab program.

Corey:

For some people it's a, it's a lot like all of your attention is, is

Corey:

on your addictive behavior and on your work stress and all that stuff.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

and it's, it's trying to get you healthier, but it's not creating a,

Corey:

a particularly balanced perspective.

Corey:

And it can be pretty dark and get kind of pretty, pretty gloomy.

Corey:

And it's not necessarily all, it's not not looking at the total picture.

Corey:

. And so for me it helped me to sort of see that, um, you know, we do, there's

Corey:

the life balance wheel where you, where you can like see how much time

Corey:

you're giving and how satisfied you are with your, with your job or with

Corey:

your home or with your family life or your, your romantic life, whatever.

Corey:

But this is just about sort of how much time being aware of how

Corey:

much time and perspective you're giving to each of these things.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Well it's, it was a

Corey:

really very helpful reminder for, for me.

Corey:

And then I think it also really affirmed for me that like a kid

Corey:

who's having a tantrum in the grocery store, sometimes you gotta

Corey:

take them out of the grocery store.

Corey:

Sometimes you gotta , you gotta take them outta the playground

Corey:

and and move them aside.

Corey:

And I think it affirmed for me that like taking myself outta that

Corey:

environment was, was so necess.

Corey:

And not because, not because my work or my employer insisted on it, but because that

Corey:

was what was gonna allow me to recenter and reregulate and, and, um, and feel

Nathan:

better.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

When you put it like that, it sounds, uh, almost ridiculous that that's

Nathan:

not the not the immediate solution.

Nathan:

Eh,

Corey:

it it does.

Corey:

It does.

Corey:

And you know, there's also, I was trying to think of what part to read,

Corey:

and I encourage everyone to look up, look up his wheel, wheel of awareness,

Corey:

and there are diagrams online that, that, where you can find it and,

Corey:

and look, look at it more closely.

Corey:

But he also talks about distinguishing between feel and am and he's talking

Corey:

about teaching this to children.

Corey:

The difference between I am feeling sad versus I am sad.

Corey:

Right.

Corey:

And this comes back to a, as adults, there's, we have a lot to

Corey:

learn about that, about like how our language impacts our being.

Corey:

And if.

Corey:

and we can catch ourself using that type of language a lot.

Corey:

Where it's like, I am, I am an addict.

Corey:

Right.

Corey:

For example.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

And, and what that, what that impact is.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

versus just the current state that we're in saying that you

Corey:

I am, this creates like this

Nathan:

permanence and this It does.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And we've

Corey:

seen sort of self-defining, self-fulfilling kind of

Nathan:

a thing.

Nathan:

Absolutely.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

The science is there to back it up

Corey:

too.

Corey:

He, he's talking about, um, a child named Josh.

Corey:

Josh is sort of the example in this chapter.

Corey:

Josh's suffering was a result of being stuck on the rim of the

Corey:

wheel of awareness rather than perceiving the world from his hub.

Corey:

So the center and integrating his many, the many points of the his rim, he

Corey:

directed all of his attention towards just a few particular rim points that created

Corey:

an anxious and critical state of mind.

Corey:

As a result, he lost touch with many of the other parts of the rim that

Corey:

would help him experience a more peaceful and accepting state of mind.

Corey:

This is what happens when kids aren't working from an integrated wheel.

Corey:

Just like adults.

Corey:

They can quickly become stuck on certain rim points or a few particular

Corey:

aspects of their being, which often leads to rigidity or chaos.

Corey:

It leaves them confusing the difference between feel and am.

Corey:

When a child experiences a particular state of mind as a feeling of frustration

Corey:

or loneliness, they may be tempted to define themselves based on that temporary

Corey:

experience as opposed to understanding that simply how they are in that moment.

Corey:

The danger is that a temporary state of mind can be perceived as a permanent part.

Corey:

The state becomes seen as a trait that defines us and it goes on there.

Corey:

So I think there's a lot for adults in general to learn about that,

Corey:

but a lot of people in recovery to learn about that too, that we, we

Corey:

kind of can take on this identity based on the language that we use.

Nathan:

That is a.

Nathan:

A brilliant, um, way to set the system up there.

Nathan:

Uh, as far as trying to, I, I, I mean, I, I don't know what kids are capable

Nathan:

of as far as making that connection, because many adults are, are unable to,

Nathan:

you know, get to that point where they can see that there's something outside

Nathan:

of them that's, that's happening and then reduce it down to a, a, a sort of core

Nathan:

that is being affected by these things due to, uh, you know, I don't know.

Nathan:

Um, it's more of a management issue at its core, right?

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And I, yeah, that's part of growing up.

Nathan:

But many, like, again, because we've lost our, I think it has to

Nathan:

do with community and our maybe.

Nathan:

Having a practice of meditation, a daily meditation would increase your

Nathan:

ability to be aware of, of the difference between what you are in the center or

Nathan:

the, the hub, I guess as he's saying, as opposed to out on the rim there.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

It, it's also interesting because it speaks to the loss of awareness that

Nathan:

happens when we get in that dark place.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. So if you were anxious or angry, and that's the, the last feeling that you

Nathan:

had as you retreated inwards towards that hub as the darkness, you could

Nathan:

kind of think of it as a flashlight against a wall and the beam is getting

Nathan:

narrower and narrower or like a bullseye.

Nathan:

Even where the darkness is, is creeping in kind of section by

Nathan:

section until you're just in your hub and because there's nothing else.

Nathan:

all your options, all your things that would balance you out, all your, uh,

Nathan:

points on the rim like he's saying there, that would be your, your normal kind of

Nathan:

anchors or way to climb back out of the darkness are now you're blinded to them.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's a very interesting tool.

Nathan:

I'm gonna have to look at that.

Corey:

So two thoughts I had, I, I re recall what I was trying to say

Corey:

a moment ago was that going back to the, the language of powerlessness

Corey:

and to say, I am powerless.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

It's brutal.

Nathan:

Right.

Nathan:

And it,

Corey:

it really does sort of fulfill that state of being and,

Corey:

um, and isn't particularly helpful.

Corey:

I am, I feel when I am having an urge or a craving, I feel powerless.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

But I am not powerless to me is a, a healthier way to, to say it.

Corey:

Uh, and the other thought I had Nathan was when we are drug seeking or

Corey:

when we are having a craving or, or.

Corey:

Feeling anxious and looking for relief.

Corey:

We tell ourselves in that moment that the, that the drug of

Corey:

choice will take us out of it.

Corey:

It'll take us to a different place.

Corey:

But if you think about the wheel of awareness, to me, the, the drug

Corey:

is right next to, uh, anxiety and trauma and, and all of these harmful,

Corey:

scary, shitty feelings that I had.

Corey:

So they were, they were intertwined.

Corey:

So it's, it was not a different perspective that I was actually attaining.

Corey:

I think I, I thought that it was a different part of the wheel, but for

Corey:

me at least, they became so conjoined and so intertwined that, that I was

Corey:

always pointed towards the same thing.

Corey:

I was always pointed towards that, uh, stress and anxiety and, and,

Corey:

and angst and dissatisfaction.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

You turned, that's what we do.

Nathan:

I guess when we're, when we're in that state and you're using that drug

Nathan:

in a, not how that drug is supposed to be used, it causes a, it almost

Nathan:

makes a shadow effect where now you've retreated back into the darkness and

Nathan:

you're, you're oscillating between, uh, anxiety, depression, fear, whatever it

Nathan:

is, and that, and your drug of choice.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, and you can see how that pattern would develop.

Nathan:

And then once you're locked in, you can't see your way out of it

Nathan:

because all your, all your other access points is, are blinded.

Nathan:

Right.

Nathan:

And that, yeah, you can see that play time and time again.

Nathan:

Yes.

Nathan:

It's also interesting because you can see how it's not to just the drug, right?

Nathan:

The drug can be taken out of the equation.

Nathan:

That's why you can have these different addictive behaviors.

Nathan:

It's the way, it's your relationship with that behavior pattern.

Nathan:

that sets up that kind of oscillation and then cuts off the rest of

Nathan:

your, your normal anchor points to whatever makes you feel good.

Nathan:

So it, I mean, it would explain why like, so many people can, can use

Nathan:

drugs like cocaine or, or even heroin recreationally, because they didn't

Nathan:

go into the relationship with those, that, with that kind of a dynamic.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Right.

Nathan:

They probably went into the relationship with, with all their,

Nathan:

they were in a healthy place.

Nathan:

They, you know, they, they experience whatever the drug is for, you know,

Nathan:

whatever positives it has to offer and then don't retreat back into the,

Nathan:

the middle and, and, and just sit there and wait for the drug again.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

They just go back to their business.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

You know, I, it's very interesting.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

It, it's like, it's like to, to, to make a pop culture reference.

Corey:

It's like, why did, , why did heroin kill Kurt Cobain and not Keith Richards?

Corey:

Well, their, all of their life experience that led them up to being, you know,

Corey:

rock and roll stars impacted that.

Corey:

And the, the, the, the psychology, the psychological groundwork that was

Corey:

laid before they got to that place impacted the relationship with drugs.

Corey:

Keith Richards was, and still he, not that he's using drugs now, but he,

Corey:

he was having the time of his life.

Corey:

He was, he isn't , he, I don't, I don't think Keith is, he was having

Corey:

the time of his life and Kurt Cobain was, was medicating for his pain.

Nathan:

He was, yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Corey:

And that, I mean, that's a, that's a very like, sort of

Corey:

simple example of that, but Yeah.

Corey:

But you, you're so true, so, right.

Corey:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

No, it's, it's interesting.

Nathan:

There's, there's a lot of thought, uh, thought experiments that could

Nathan:

be taken out of that for sure.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

That's a really cool, uh, Real cool introduction there, man.

Nathan:

Cool.

Corey:

So what else have you got here for

Nathan:

us?

Nathan:

Well, what I wanted to, uh, definitely present as something that people should

Nathan:

take a , it's not something that you're gonna take a quick look at, but the

Nathan:

perennial philosophy by Aldous Huxley is, I, I mean, I gotta say that it's

Nathan:

the most amazing book I've ever read.

Nathan:

I mean, that's, that's all there is to it.

Nathan:

I, I don't know how I'm going to find a book that's more amazing than that.

Nathan:

And I've, I, I mean, I've, I've went through the Bible with a fine-tooth comb,

Nathan:

uh, read it front to back and studied it.

Nathan:

Same with the Quran.

Nathan:

Um, there's lots more religious texts that, uh, Unical books and

Nathan:

stuff like that, and, Religious books are, are necessarily gonna

Nathan:

be your mo most earthshattering.

Nathan:

But what I'm saying is that in the grand scheme of everything, as far as what's

Nathan:

going on here, um, uh, having a spiritual foundation, a spiritual understanding

Nathan:

of, of the common threads between the different major religions in the world

Nathan:

and belief systems, things that stand the test of time, you know, going back

Nathan:

thousands of years, things that can be used as, uh, points of reference now

Nathan:

and wisdom that just is never going to go away in this reality because it, I

Nathan:

believe that a lot of the, the, the points that are, whatever you want to call it,

Nathan:

elucidated or, or, or made accessible by Huxley in this book, they're pieces that

Nathan:

you can take, read it maybe three, four or five times on different occasions.

Nathan:

And then on the s on, uh, the sixth or their seventh time, You

Nathan:

know, you're like, holy shit.

Nathan:

Okay, I, I understand.

Nathan:

And now I understand something, a, a thread of truth that is far beyond

Nathan:

anything that, uh, I've ever been able to, to gain from reading a book.

Nathan:

I mean, it's just, it's, it's a miraculous piece of work.

Nathan:

And, um, it's one of those things that you could just have laying there, open

Nathan:

it up anywhere, start reading, and I mean, it's gonna, you'll be thinking

Nathan:

about it for the rest of the day.

Nathan:

So, I'm gonna, I've got a, uh, a piece here that speaks towards, uh, my epiphany

Nathan:

with charity and, uh, my understanding of humility and, uh, and, uh, uh, tranquility

Nathan:

and disinterest, uh, with material possessions and desires of this world.

Nathan:

Yeah, so I'll read it here.

Nathan:

It's, I wa . I was gonna edit it down for you a little bit

Nathan:

cuz it's, uh, a little long.

Nathan:

But, uh, here it goes.

Nathan:

The distinguishing marks of charity are disinterestedness,

Nathan:

tranquility and humility.

Nathan:

But where there is disinterestedness, there is neither greed for

Nathan:

personal advantage nor fear for personal loss or punishment.

Nathan:

Where there is tranquility, there is neither craving nor aversion, but a

Nathan:

steady will to conform to the divine tao or logos on every level of existence.

Nathan:

And a steady awareness of the divine suchness and what should

Nathan:

be one's own relation to it.

Nathan:

Where there is humility, there is no sensor and no glorification of the

Nathan:

ego you just are, or any projected alter ego at the expense of others.

Nathan:

Who are recognized as having the same weaknesses and faults, but also the

Nathan:

same capacity for transcending them in the unit of knowledge of God as one has

Nathan:

oneself and God, there is obviously up for interpretation, but I feel that there's

Nathan:

a, they're talking about a certain flow.

Nathan:

Like I like that logos word in that it's, it speaks towards the

Nathan:

connectivity of all living beings.

Nathan:

Maybe everything that's, that exists in this reality and then kind of

Nathan:

gives you some accountability for, you know, treating people well

Nathan:

and understanding really why that, that matters on a grand scale.

Nathan:

But, uh, I know that was, that was super long and, uh, there's some

Nathan:

crazy, crazy words in there, but, uh, what are your thoughts, sir?

Nathan:

So is

Corey:

he suggesting essentially that we are our own enemy and that if we can

Corey:

get ourselves out of the way and get our psychology out of the way, that that is

Corey:

where, that is, where the virtue lies?

Corey:

Is that in essence what

Nathan:

he's saying?

Nathan:

That that is a huge part of it.

Nathan:

This is where like, uh, Buddhist and, uh, yeah, uh, well, Buddhists are, that's

Nathan:

probably the, the best example of that.

Nathan:

They speak of this complete ego death.

Nathan:

Same with, uh, people who've experienced, uh, I don't know if you, uh, how much, uh,

Nathan:

psychogenic like, uh, mushrooms and L s D and stuff like that you've experienced,

Nathan:

but I have been to that place where there is, I, I had an experience once

Nathan:

where I was stripped down to this, uh, I watched the layers of myself fall away,

Nathan:

uh, over a period of about eight hours.

Nathan:

It was a, uh, Ibogaine experience.

Nathan:

, and I don't think I'll maybe , maybe again, I'll find the courage to,

Nathan:

to, uh, to face that place again.

Nathan:

But I've never had an experience where it was so obvious what was going on, and that

Nathan:

you, when you could see those layers fall off and see all these different kind of

Nathan:

masks that you wear to, uh, the lies that you tell, the exaggerations, the nonsense,

Nathan:

all these things that you think matter.

Nathan:

Uh, you watched them fall away to the point where you think you're

Nathan:

gonna die because you think you need all of those little things

Nathan:

to, to continue in this world.

Nathan:

And it reduced me to this just pillar of, uh, it was like a just light,

Nathan:

I guess just a pillar of light.

Nathan:

And I felt that that pillar of light was connected to.

Nathan:

What they call in this book, the Divine Ground.

Nathan:

And this might, you know, I realize here that I'm starting to sound a

Nathan:

little bit out there for some people.

Nathan:

That's fine.

Nathan:

. . But what, what it seemed to me was happening there is if you picture, um,

Nathan:

say a, uh, a big piece of ground with icicles sticking up, that to me felt like

Nathan:

my connection with other living things.

Nathan:

I was one of those points of light that was embedded into that divine ground.

Nathan:

And the divine ground went on forever.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. And that, that material, there I is.

Nathan:

During that experience, it was a representation of our nature here as

Nathan:

that individual form being connected to our, our nature everywhere here

Nathan:

and then somewhere else also that was actually generating that divine ground.

Nathan:

So it goes off in every direction.

Nathan:

And then at some point you realize that there's a, a dimension, uh, dimension

Nathan:

to it that you can feel is attached to it, but you can't really see it here

Nathan:

in the way that we think of seeing.

Nathan:

And, um, this speaks to that, I think.

Nathan:

And when you talk about mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, taking yourself outta the equation, I mean, it's, it's, it's perfect, you

Nathan:

know, when you, if you can remove all the nonsense and realize how connected

Nathan:

we all are to one another and to, to what feels like something else as well.

Nathan:

Like maybe something that was involved in the creation of this reality or maybe

Nathan:

some kind of a force, whatever this logos thing is, that's, uh, and I don't care.

Nathan:

I don't, uh, I don't need to know what that is.

Nathan:

That was the other lesson there.

Nathan:

. I'm just fine with it.

Nathan:

I'm fine that it, it's, it's given me an understanding that makes

Nathan:

me, it's given me the ability to, to act lovingly towards mm-hmm.

Nathan:

other people.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

not feel love, not feel like, uh, how come I don't feel love for other people?

Nathan:

It, that's not, that's not the only form of love.

Nathan:

In fact, it's one of the lower forms of love.

Nathan:

It's that ability to understand that you have the act, you have the ability

Nathan:

to act and cultivate love as a, uh, as an action towards other people.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. And you, it's very hard to do that if you're holding on to all that, like

Nathan:

you said, getting in your own way with all that kind of extra stuff.

Nathan:

That's nonsense.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, you know, it's okay.

Nathan:

We all do it, but to see it for what it is, I think gives you a much better

Nathan:

foundation to work with moving forward.

Corey:

So when did you, I mean, you, you came to this most recent, um, the,

Corey:

the epiphany episode that we did about charity, but when did you encounter

Corey:

Huxley and how did you know, did the, the experience that you're speaking

Corey:

of with Ibogaine, did that come before Huxley, or what's the chronology there?

Corey:

I'm curious.

Nathan:

Well, if you go back to my original story

Nathan:

there in episode two mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, I think I mentioned, um, I was staying at my friend's place.

Nathan:

I was in a real bad spot and I, I probably referred to it as a dream or something.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And, um, , the reason I did that was because I wasn't clear on, I, I

Nathan:

hadn't made up my mind as to whether it would be beneficial for people

Nathan:

who are listening to this to know.

Nathan:

what really happened there, or if it was enough for people to just know

Nathan:

that I had some sort of an awakening or a, an epiphany and what, what

Nathan:

I had decided to do there, because I was basically in a quarter and I

Nathan:

was in the, in the hub of darkness.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And felt that I, I didn't have options.

Nathan:

And I reached out to somebody because I'd researched Igan as a, uh, a molecule.

Nathan:

It's, I believe it's an African, I think it's a, a tree in Africa.

Nathan:

And, um, they use it for religious ceremonies and stuff like that over there.

Nathan:

And one of the, one of the trademark things about it that I, I wasn't

Nathan:

told this until I experienced it, but there's a drum beat that goes on in

Nathan:

the background, the whole experience.

Nathan:

And at first I thought it was my, . And then when the thing starts going like

Nathan:

da, you're like, oh shit, I'm gonna die.

Nathan:

Right?

Nathan:

And then you realize, mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, no, you hurt.

Nathan:

Okay.

Nathan:

No, it's not that.

Nathan:

It's something else.

Nathan:

And there's no explanation for whatever that is.

Nathan:

And anybody out there, um, who has been to, there's Igan treatment centers in Yes.

Nathan:

South America.

Nathan:

Um, so people, some people have had amazing results with just basically

Nathan:

walking into these places while actively addicted to heroin, for example.

Nathan:

And then walking out and just giving up heroin.

Nathan:

And I, I didn't believe that that was possible.

Nathan:

I thought it was, you know, sounded pretty over the top.

Nathan:

But I, I tried this stuff and I understand now why I, I, I see what

Nathan:

the mechanism of action would be.

Nathan:

, if you wanna talk to the pharmacological terms mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. Um, and what it does is it just, , it takes away all the nonsense, so it

Nathan:

shows you so, and in a fashion of like, I mean, I've done l s d I'm fairly

Nathan:

experienced with, uh, like psilocybin and stuff like that, but this was a

Nathan:

different level of, of hallucination and it was a different, different level of

Nathan:

experience in that I, I couldn't say for sure whether I was going to live or die.

Nathan:

So there was a lot of fear there, and nobody had known

Nathan:

that I'd taken this stuff.

Nathan:

So I, you know, it's theoretically possible that I could have

Nathan:

died, but, and it was long, like it was eight to 12 hours.

Nathan:

I can't tell or remember for sure, but oh my God, it was long.

Nathan:

And, uh, when I came out of it, I just, I kind of snapped too and

Nathan:

I was like, holy leash, all this stuff I'm doing is so stupid.

Nathan:

what am I doing?

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, I'm not telling my parents about what's going on, but kind.

Nathan:

They love me.

Nathan:

Why wouldn't I do?

Nathan:

So I immediately went and called my parents and told

Nathan:

'em exactly what was going on.

Nathan:

Wow.

Nathan:

Wow.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And then I was, I looked at these things that I was doing and, and I, I was just

Nathan:

like, this is, it's got, this is enough.

Nathan:

This is enough.

Nathan:

It's gotta stop.

Nathan:

We gotta, these things that you think you care about are, yes,

Nathan:

they're real and they're meaningful and they have some application.

Nathan:

But on the grand scale, , it's ridiculous.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Ridiculous.

Nathan:

You're basically killing yourself for money.

Nathan:

That's what you're doing, Nathan.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. Is that what you wanna do?

Nathan:

Do you think that's fair to your parents?

Nathan:

Do you think that's fair to the people that love you?

Nathan:

Come on, get your head outta your ass buddy.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Do something about this, right?

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

So that's what it did.

Nathan:

Was it just, it, it made it so that there was no more argument.

Nathan:

back and forth in my head, should I do this or should I do that?

Nathan:

It just was go do it.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

So, wow.

Nathan:

You can, yeah, you could tag whatever kind of, uh, value you want to that.

Nathan:

And, um, I will say that it definitely, I'm glad that I had the experience.

Nathan:

You can't approach those type of, of whatever you wanna call 'em, plant

Nathan:

medicine, pharmacological agents.

Nathan:

I, I believe they are due a, a tremendous amount of respect.

Nathan:

I believe they're tools that could be used to, you know, in my situation, it

Nathan:

gave me, it got me outta that hubs and open it, put light everywhere, right?

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, it was just a flash of light far beyond the rim of what , you know,

Nathan:

so you could see out in every direction and you're looking and,

Nathan:

and you're exposed in the darkness.

Nathan:

and there's nothing left, but whatever that white core or

Nathan:

bright thing we are in the middle.

Nathan:

That's all that was left.

Nathan:

And then what's the argument, you know?

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, it's just stop being silly and, uh, you know, get some help.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

I, I guess what I'm trying to say here is I, I don't necessarily endorse

Nathan:

that as a, I don't know what would happen for people or listeners.

Nathan:

You know, if you're, if you're thinking of doing something like

Nathan:

that, please, uh, do it with somebody who knows what they're doing and I

Nathan:

wouldn't recommend doing it alone.

Nathan:

Uh, same with Ayahuasca, d m t, any of these types of things.

Nathan:

And my God, don't go in there thinking that you're gonna have

Nathan:

some, it's not a recreational situation, and please don't take that.

Nathan:

I don't believe that's what it's for at all.

Nathan:

So yeah, if you go in there with a heavy ego, it will beat you down.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Tear that off.

Nathan:

And yeah, that is a hard experience to stomach.

Nathan:

So you

Corey:

had that experience and then, Did in Reading Huxley, who's a pretty

Corey:

notorious and famous for his, you know, being such a, um, sort of a founding

Corey:

father of, of psychedelics and, and of, um, writing about it for sure.

Corey:

And influenced, you know, Timothy Leary and Jim Morrison

Corey:

and all of these, these people.

Corey:

Ram Dass Ram Dass um, when you found Aldous Huxley, did you, did it kind

Corey:

of click like, holy smokes, I've been there, I know what this guy's saying.

Nathan:

Oh, always.

Nathan:

Yes.

Nathan:

I've, I've always had that relationship with Huxley.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

the reason, like, the reason I, uh, I like him so much specifically out of those guys

Nathan:

and I, I mean, there's different people who are on that same path and I just

Nathan:

learned a new terminology for it actually.

Nathan:

Um, Ram Dass has a great, uh, terminology for, it's me and, uh, a friend.

Nathan:

Were trying to, to figure out what you would call it when somebody is

Nathan:

maybe more aware of this path that they're on as opposed to somebody who

Nathan:

is completely unaware of that path and what they call the Buddhist believed

Nathan:

that like, uh, the Dalai Lama is always born on the path way ahead, right?

Nathan:

Each iteration or incarnation that being, understands where it is in

Nathan:

comparison to somebody who is, you know, you could say they're a new

Nathan:

soul as that's like a, uh, yeah.

Nathan:

Kind of a p pop, cultural reference.

Nathan:

But what I think, uh, sums it up best is some people have thinner veils.

Nathan:

and, uh, in the mystical cultures, the ones that embraced mysticism,

Nathan:

that would mean that you are closer to finishing whatever this is, or

Nathan:

finishing this revolution of it.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

So like, uh, a Buddhist would say, well, this person maybe

Nathan:

has one or two lives to live.

Nathan:

You know, their ve their veil is so thin, their ascension is imminent.

Nathan:

Right?

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And that would be your, I look at that as your, that white light

Nathan:

that's attached to the divine ground, which is re assimilate into the

Nathan:

ground, and then something happens.

Nathan:

Perhaps that is another stage of this kind of reality.

Nathan:

Who knows what goes on, doesn't matter.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

. But the understanding of that principle, I think is interesting where you, you

Nathan:

can have people who are, and then it also, I don't know if you've ever met

Nathan:

somebody who is not being responsible with ayahuasca or one of these like very.

Nathan:

Potent, uh, plant medicines.

Nathan:

There's a truth to the thinness of the veil there too.

Nathan:

, because it could be used in another way.

Nathan:

Say that you are, you are dangerously close to losing touch with reality.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

As in you're no longer anchored down to this place like you

Nathan:

should be because you're not being responsible with that molecule.

Nathan:

And the,

Corey:

you know, that's what they say.

Corey:

You know, that, that it can, um, particularly with L S D, that was sort

Corey:

of the thought that, that people who overuse it or misuse it can go into a

Corey:

sort of irreparable state of psychosis.

Corey:

Is that, is that sort of what you're, you're getting at

Corey:

? Nathan: Uh, well that's a urban myth.

Corey:

The, uh, they used to say you do a certain amount of acid, then you're

Corey:

clinically insane, or some ridiculous thing like that, whatever that means.

Corey:

But yeah, the same type of idea where if you're using a powerful psychogenic

Corey:

like that, like I was, there's a podcast with a guy , if we're gonna

Corey:

get really crazy here, uh, who, I don't know how familiar are with uh, D M T,

Corey:

but I guess this guy was doing D M t smoking D M T, which is the, that's

Corey:

the psychogenic compound in ayahuasca.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. So when you smoke at the experience is short, it's only like six minutes.

Corey:

But you can, you can have a whole life in that world in six minutes time is

Corey:

not relevant there the way it is here.

Corey:

So this guy was doing D M T or smoking D M T every day for like months.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. And he was having these encounters with all these entities and uh, eventually I

Corey:

guess he, uh, cuz when you smoke D M T, it's a lot of people report a sensation

Corey:

of like leaving the planet entirely and they're out in this kinda, I don't

Corey:

know, nether world or whatever, and.

Corey:

He, he encountered a group of beings that had basically like set up a, uh, kind of,

Corey:

it sounds like an intervention, but it, it, a group of 'em basically came up and

Corey:

said, look, man, you gotta settle down.

Corey:

You're, uh, you know, you've been in here way, way, way too much.

Corey:

You're not here to learn.

Corey:

You're here to, I don't know what you're doing here.

Corey:

You don't know what you're doing here, but you're in serious danger

Corey:

of becoming completely lost . So go home and live your life and, you

Corey:

know, don't come here every day.

Corey:

Don't come here for a few years even, you know, like they, they really spelled

Corey:

it out for him and kind of, uh, these were D m T elves apparently, and a group

Corey:

of them bounced him out of the D M T realm and told him not to come back for

Corey:

a while because he'd been abusing it.

Corey:

That's the story.

Corey:

an an intervention within the experience.

Corey:

Within the

Nathan:

experience.

Nathan:

Wow.

Nathan:

Wow.

Nathan:

Yeah, and, um, I don't know.

Nathan:

I don't know.

Nathan:

I'm not, uh, I haven't been brave enough to attempt that.

Nathan:

I don't, I just says it's a hell of a lot of, it's hard, I think to, uh, you

Nathan:

know, if you're gonna go there and do that stuff, it's, you gotta be prepared to, to

Nathan:

face down demons and all sorts of stuff.

Nathan:

And I think I'm getting to a good place, but, uh, you know, maybe when I'm a

Nathan:

little older and I've, uh, I've run into a stagnant place where I need to

Nathan:

open myself up to that again, possibly.

Nathan:

But, um, other than that, yeah.

Nathan:

Uh, doing those types of things every day.

Nathan:

Not responsible.

Corey:

The other thing that made me think of Nathan was that, um, I know it was, it

Corey:

was actually offered to me barely early on of going off work that, that there are

Corey:

clinics in, at least in British Columbia, that offer ketamine infusion treatments.

Corey:

Mm.

Corey:

Um, for post-traumatic stress.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

, and that was offered to me and I declined it.

Corey:

But I know that that is a, a paid, I mean, I think it, when it was offered

Corey:

to me, it was actually a trial that they had offered to, to put me into mm-hmm.

Corey:

, but there was full coverage paid for, for this experience.

Corey:

Right.

Corey:

And I don't know how many treatments they were offering there.

Corey:

I, as an ER nurse, saw ketamine being used, um, for procedural

Corey:

sedations in the er mm-hmm.

Corey:

, you know, for putting someone's shoulder back in place, or

Corey:

Cardiovert someone mm-hmm.

Corey:

. And, uh, it never, it never looked like a, a pleasant experience.

Corey:

It always looked like a fairly scary.

Corey:

uncomfortable experience, but that's something that is continuing to evolve

Corey:

as a, as a treatment modality and, and one that where there is coverage for

Corey:

healthcare workers and first responders.

Corey:

So,

Nathan:

um, well, yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

I mean, and the results from ketamine, especially the ketamine, n a d plus

Nathan:

infusions that they're doing mm-hmm.

Nathan:

for, uh, I think it was, I, I wanna say opiates and alcohol they were having

Nathan:

the most success with, but psilocybin, some of these trials are like the,

Nathan:

the, the doctors look at the results and they can't, they can't believe it.

Nathan:

They've never, I mean, it's, so, yeah.

Nathan:

I, I think, uh, I think that's in our future, you know, the next five, 10

Nathan:

years, you're probably gonna see, you might even see psilocybin become a

Nathan:

covered treatment modality along with, uh, some kind of talk therapy, I think.

Nathan:

So.

Nathan:

I wouldn't be surprised.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

I agree with you.

Nathan:

Totally.

Nathan:

Um, so yeah, we got pretty derailed there.

Nathan:

. Corey: Just kidding me.

Nathan:

Now crawl outta the rabbit hole that we just

Nathan:

dove into . And we had folks, we had a big talk before this

Nathan:

one about trying to stay on track

Nathan:

and it didn't, but that's fine.

Nathan:

I mean, that's, if you don't like that kind of talk, I mean,

Nathan:

I don't know what to tell you.

Nathan:

I dunno what to tell you . Um, but anyway, we'll get back on, uh, on, on track here.

Nathan:

And, uh, what do you got going, Corey, for

Corey:

your ? Well, this, this next book feels like a complete non-sequitur

Corey:

in the conversation , which it is, but that's okay because it's gonna take us

Corey:

down a whole, whole other path, I think.

Corey:

Okay.

Corey:

Um, it is the third book, uh, that I read chronologically in terms.

Corey:

These compared to the other two books.

Corey:

But, and it is also, I would say, number one in terms of its impact on

Corey:

me, so it's kind of appropriate that I'm touching on this one last, uh, the

Corey:

book is called Complex P T S D, from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker.

Corey:

This came out in 2013 and the title of it is so stale and I wish, I wish Pete

Corey:

title that something may be a little bit more inspiring and, but it is the

Corey:

most accessible, relatable, easy to read book about, um, and practical book about

Corey:

P T S D Complex, P T S D, which I'm gonna talk about in just a second here.

Corey:

And then with practical tools of how to, uh, combat, combat negative thinking and.

Corey:

Sort of get yourself out of these cycles of, of sort of

Corey:

spiraling, spiraling thinking.

Corey:

It's just so accessible and hands-on.

Corey:

So first of all, complex P T S D.

Corey:

We're not talking about acute P T S D or P T S D from a singular

Corey:

traumatic experience, um, you know, witnessing a trauma or

Corey:

witnessing a, uh, active violence.

Corey:

It can be that.

Corey:

But complex P T S D re refers to a more long-term effect, uh, oftentimes

Corey:

rooted from childhood or early life traumas that have compounded.

Corey:

Would

Nathan:

this be what, um, most soldiers reporting P T S D, would

Nathan:

they have complex P ts D or in,

Corey:

in Certainly in some cases.

Corey:

Okay.

Corey:

It, it's not referring to though, like, you know, I was, I was.

Corey:

I witnessed one singular event.

Corey:

It's usually sort of a more, um, protracted, compounded life experience.

Corey:

Okay.

Corey:

Um, and, uh, he gets into it being quite, um, particularly

Corey:

rooted in, in, in childhood stuff.

Corey:

Um, and developmental trauma that can occur stuff with authority, um, but

Corey:

also sort of trauma that, you know, where it's, it's more black and white.

Corey:

Like, I saw this happen or this happened to me.

Corey:

What he, what he's getting at here, and there's a couple of areas that I

Corey:

wanted to touch on, was the fascinating discussion about emotional flashbacks.

Corey:

And this is, again, unique to complex P T S D, that that a, an interaction

Corey:

or a, you know, an experience with another person where it's, where

Corey:

there's conflict or where there is, uh, a look or a response that you are

Corey:

given that that can, can, without.

Corey:

Without triggering a visual flashback of the trauma that occurred, it can

Corey:

muster up the same, uh, physiological response of stress, of anxiety, um,

Corey:

as the initial event that happened.

Corey:

Wow.

Corey:

So, you know, the feeling of being, the feeling of, of being

Corey:

shamed or being ridiculed or being disciplined and that eliciting sort

Corey:

of the same kind of a feeling that it did when, when you were a kid,

Nathan:

man, that is, uh, that is absolutely terrifying.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Corey:

And, and so I think, you know, what it, what it explained for me was

Corey:

the idea that feeling a certain way.

Corey:

I, I'll I'll say at work, you know, where, and I think I was, I think I was

Corey:

personally look dealing with both things.

Corey:

So, Having specific trauma experiences at the workplace where I would

Corey:

have a reminder of those, of those experiences that happened a year

Corey:

or two ago where it would be like a sensory cue or a visual cue where like

Corey:

another person comes in and there's lots of blood or something like that.

Corey:

But also the feeling of feeling helpless or feeling anxious or feeling outta

Corey:

control could elicit an anxiety within myself or a tension within myself.

Corey:

There was actually kind of queuing me back to times that I felt

Corey:

like that as a kid, I think.

Nathan:

Oh, wow.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And, and is that a, is that a common occurrence amongst most people who

Nathan:

have that, uh, complex P T S D?

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Corey:

Okay.

Corey:

So I'll, I'll just read you a little, a little piece about

Corey:

emotional flashbacks first here.

Corey:

Emotional flashbacks are perhaps the most noticeable and characteristic

Corey:

feature of complex P T S D.

Corey:

Survivors of traumatizing abandonment are extremely susceptible to

Corey:

painful emotional flashbacks.

Corey:

Emotional flashbacks are a sudden and often prolonged regression to

Corey:

the overwhelming feeling states of being abused or abandoned.

Corey:

These feelings states can include overwhelming fear, shame,

Corey:

alienation, rage, grief, depression.

Corey:

They also include unnecessary triggering of our flight or

Corey:

fight or flight instincts.

Corey:

It's important to state here that emotional flashbacks, like most

Corey:

things in life are not all or none.

Corey:

Flashbacks can range from intensity, from subtle to horrific.

Corey:

They can also vary in duration, ranging from moments to weeks on

Corey:

end, where they delve into what many therapists call a regression.

Corey:

So, you know, I think, I think for me at times, um, that feeling of there was a lot

Corey:

of violence at work, there was a lot of, and we've in recent episodes have talked

Corey:

about, about, you know, Where it wasn't necessarily physical violence, but, but

Corey:

verbal aggression from patients or, or family members say how that could stir

Corey:

up the same feeling, uh, as something that happened at school or something

Corey:

with a bully or something with authority.

Corey:

And it wouldn't necessarily take you back to, to again, the memory of that.

Corey:

But these are the same feelings that, that, that sort of were conjured up then.

Corey:

And then with that anxiety, with that sort of physiological discomfort, the

Corey:

doors then opened to, um, negative self-talk and the inner critic.

Corey:

And he, Pete Walker, the author of this book, talks a lot about

Corey:

the inner critic, um, the, that tape that is constantly playing.

Corey:

And you and I have talked about that for, for both of us.

Corey:

That, that the, the critic sort of knows, knows everything about us, knows our

Corey:

buttons, and pushes them really well.

Corey:

And if, if, If you are sort of stirred into a, a state of anxiety or restlessness

Corey:

or fear or depression that the, that inner critic can just sort of take off.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. So he, he presents some, some really helpful tools of, you know, in ways how to

Corey:

talk back to yourself, how to, to support yourself in talking back to that critic.

Corey:

Um, you know, I gave, I think I've, I've given this example in meetings, but maybe

Corey:

it's a, a good one to give here that, you know, thinking about anxiety around

Corey:

which, picking a daycare for my son Okay.

Corey:

And feeling like I'm gonna, that my inner critic was telling me

Corey:

you're, you know, you're putting your son in, in, in harm's way.

Corey:

You're neglecting 'em by putting 'em into daycare.

Corey:

Um, you're setting 'em up to potentially be, you know, molested

Corey:

or to have adults who you don't know or trust, look after him.

Corey:

. And the way I combated that, and I learned that this from, that, from

Corey:

from this book, was to literally tell myself when I'm, when I'm thinking

Corey:

about that, like I have good judgment.

Corey:

I trust my own judgment.

Corey:

I can read people.

Corey:

I have the skills and the ability to make the choice that is best for my son.

Corey:

And I will do the best that I can to make that choice.

Corey:

And so like literally talking back and pushing that inner critic away, which

Corey:

sounds so hokey, but you've got this tape that's playing negatively, and if

Corey:

you don't push back against that, um, it can just get absolutely carried away.

Nathan:

It can drive you insane.

Nathan:

It can, and, and

Corey:

it, it can lead you towards, um, more anxiety, more

Corey:

depression, more restlessness, more.

Corey:

Negative, light, harmful life choices.

Corey:

So just learning to sort of, and he describes it as, you know, self

Corey:

parenting, self mothering and self fathering, , where you are, you were

Corey:

the one who's like building yourself up and supporting that inner voice

Corey:

and, and challenging that, that critic.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. Nathan: Yeah.

Corey:

I like to think of it as being your own best friend.

Corey:

Yes, exactly.

Corey:

If you literally saying, talking to

Nathan:

that best friend, . Exactly.

Nathan:

Exactly.

Nathan:

You know, no, I, I, yeah.

Nathan:

Quite regularly, there's a couple of me going on inside my head and, uh, one is

Nathan:

the more autopilot and it is more, more prone to, you know, slipping a negative

Nathan:

thinking without, you know, just doing it on kind of more like a default setting.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

But I've come a long way in training myself to, to challenge those

Nathan:

thoughts as quick as possible.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

And you, you don't even have to.

Nathan:

You know how you can be nice about it.

Nathan:

? Yeah.

Nathan:

Look.

Nathan:

Okay, Nathan.

Nathan:

I see what's going on here.

Nathan:

You know what, uh, where's the evidence for that, uh, statement?

Nathan:

What's, uh, says who, you know, that kinda cognitive behavioral therapy type stuff.

Corey:

Yes.

Corey:

And I think you should be nice in that, in that voice that

Corey:

you talk back to it and Yeah.

Corey:

Um,

Nathan:

otherwise you get into this like back and forth that, uh, turns into

Nathan:

you can fuel the fire with that, uh, technique as well if you're not careful.

Nathan:

Yes.

Corey:

You know, there's, there's lots of in here about how, how complex P

Corey:

T S D and trauma is connected to, um, self soothing and, you know, addictive

Corey:

behavior as a self, initially, as a self soothing mechanism, as a way of, of, um,

Corey:

trying to ease that emotional flashback.

Corey:

A way to ease that, that, uh, you know, feeling of, of anxiety

Corey:

or agitation or, or, or fear.

Corey:

. And again, I, for, for myself in the workplace, I think that

Corey:

that was so, so rooted in that.

Corey:

Okay.

Corey:

So the, the other fascinating thing that I learned, um, from this book, and

Corey:

we've talked about in, in our Caduceus meetings, we all know fight or flight

Corey:

or we should know that fairly well, just as like a, a basic sort of human

Corey:

response to a, to a stressor or a stimuli.

Corey:

Pete Walker really puts in the third f as fawn.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

, and that was one that I didn't know before.

Corey:

You know, the, the, the tendency that some of us have to sort of, to placate, to

Corey:

smooth things over, to, you know, instead of, um, you know, freezing and hiding or

Corey:

running away, you know, you try to pet the lion or try to try to feed the lion to

Corey:

make it happy and then it may not eat you.

Corey:

Right.

Corey:

Right.

Corey:

And.

Corey:

In this one chapter of the book, he's talking about, you know,

Corey:

the fawn or flight response as a, as a, as a human characteristic.

Corey:

Hmm.

Corey:

The title that he gives it.

Corey:

Interestingly, Fascinatingly is the Super Nurse.

Corey:

Okay,

Nathan:

there you go.

Corey:

That's you.

Corey:

The f that's me.

Corey:

The, the fawn flight type is most typically seen in the busy hallic

Corey:

parent, the nurse, the administrative assistant who works from dawn until

Corey:

bedtime, providing for the needs of the household, the hospital or the company.

Corey:

He compulsively takes care of everyone else's needs with

Corey:

hardly a gesture towards his own.

Corey:

The Foner flight is sometimes a misguided Mother Theresa type who escapes the pain

Corey:

of self abandonment by seeing herself as the perfect selfless caregiver,

Corey:

further distancing herself from her own pain by obsessive compulsively, rushing

Corey:

from one person in need to another.

Corey:

Some flan fight client, some fawn flight clients also become O C D, like in.

Corey:

Cleanaholic tendencies.

Corey:

One of my interns told me that her fawn flight client had a dozen color coded

Corey:

toothbrushes from various micro cleaning tasks in her family's bathroom or kitchen.

Corey:

. Some project their perfectionism onto others.

Corey:

They can appoint themselves as honorary advisors or over

Corey:

overburden others with their advice.

Corey:

However, it behooves fond flights to learn that caring is not always about fixing.

Corey:

This is especially true when the person we are trying to help is in emotional pain.

Corey:

Many times.

Corey:

All per all a person needs is empathy, acceptance, and an

Corey:

opportunity to verbally vent.

Corey:

Moreover, some mood states also need time to resolve.

Corey:

Loving people when they're feeling bad is a powerful kind of caring.

Corey:

So the super nurse, I mean, and I, I, I was certainly one of them.

Corey:

I've known a good number of them.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

, where your needs go out the window.

Corey:

Your needs are, are.

Corey:

, not even secondary.

Corey:

They're, they're just non-existent and Right.

Corey:

And for me, the fawning to say, yeah, I'll take on that extra shift.

Corey:

I'll stay later.

Corey:

I'll do the overtime.

Corey:

I'll look after these 16 patients that are stacked up in a hallway and, and I won't

Corey:

even, you know, bark to administration about it or, or, or whatever that may

Corey:

be, that need to, to people please.

Corey:

And to fawn in, in the presence of a stressor.

Corey:

It became, it became so entangled with an emotional flashback and

Corey:

that constant feeling of like stress and anxiety in my body.

Corey:

That, and I was so afraid to face it and to say no, that the

Corey:

easiest thing was to medicate it.

Corey:

Right?

Corey:

The most natural, obvious thing, obvious thing

Nathan:

was to medicate.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Well that makes perfect sense.

Nathan:

You need , your tendency towards this super nurse kind of persona.

Nathan:

And then you're asking something of yourself that is basically

Nathan:

not, not tenable, not long-term.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

anyways.

Nathan:

Therefore, the only way to continue on is to medicate.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

And you know what, this is what I remember going back to our Maya

Corey:

Salz episode where I, I had kind of asked her a question about like

Corey:

pre-screening healthcare workers.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. And she had said, I think you would exclude a lot of really wonderful people

Corey:

from the mix if you pre-screened everyone and said, no, you can't be a nurse . And

Corey:

I most definitely agree with her.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

But I do think tying it all, It's a conversation that

Corey:

should be had in universities.

Corey:

Yes.

Corey:

Or in high schools, or elementary schools even.

Corey:

But at the very least in universities where people are directly going into

Corey:

a profession that will put them at

Nathan:

risk.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

It's a tough one because how do you get people to understand

Nathan:

the danger they're in?

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Like, it, it's not, it's a very difficult thing to articulate.

Nathan:

It's very personal.

Nathan:

And I mean, to have it work effectively, you'd have to somehow communicate to

Nathan:

people during the application process almost, because you'd wanna say, look, do

Nathan:

you accept the risks of your, you know, you appear to be a, uh, the computer has

Nathan:

identified you through an algorithm as a super nurse or something like that.

Nathan:

Right.

Nathan:

. Yeah.

Nathan:

And, uh, what are you gonna do, uh, in these situations?

Nathan:

And I, I mean, awareness is always better than not aware.

Nathan:

Yep.

Nathan:

. So I guess you, you just having that there, it would be a work in progress.

Nathan:

It would be a hell of a thing to implement, but, uh, I don't

Nathan:

think there's any harm in it.

Nathan:

I mean, I sure would've liked to, I mean, I think many of us go in, we choose paths

Nathan:

that, I mean, you don't want everybody trying to prevent everything, but if

Nathan:

you know that you're going to into a specific area of danger and there seems

Nathan:

to be a common occurrence of, you know, like what's happening to nurses right

Nathan:

now is the best example I could think of.

Nathan:

I mean, there should be more being done in the beginning to address that for sure.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah,

Corey:

yeah.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

And, and, and we can't, when I say we, um, society or a health authority, can't

Corey:

take responsibility for everyone's, you know, psychological background.

Corey:

And can't sort of try to rectify, you know, every piece of, of childhood

Corey:

trauma or P T S D that, that preceded their employment mm-hmm.

Corey:

like you just, that would just be impossible and unrealistic

Corey:

and, and just too much.

Corey:

Mm-hmm.

Corey:

. But, um, I think to understand that, that, that people are coming into that

Corey:

profession or into that shift or that experience with, with the context that

Corey:

that makes them who they, all of these things that make up the fabric of their

Corey:

psychology and of their mind and their reactions and that not everyone like

Corey:

can just sort of brush it off mm-hmm.

Corey:

and that is what is expected of people.

Corey:

And, and it, again, it kind of comes back to peer support.

Corey:

It comes back to, um, to discussion.

Corey:

Yeah.

Corey:

But again, I, I, that's something I, I, I wish I had of learned

Corey:

much, much earlier in my career.

Corey:

For sure.

Nathan:

Completely understandable.

Nathan:

And, uh, we can do a better job there.

Nathan:

I know we can.

Nathan:

I did wanna mention since you were, you chose a P T S

Nathan:

D format, uh, book to mm-hmm.

Nathan:

to end with there.

Nathan:

Uh, for people who are interested, the, the company that I, uh, started

Nathan:

obsidian Support Services, uh, Corey's gonna help me out with that.

Nathan:

And, uh, Corey will be facilitating a new group that is going to be, or groups,

Nathan:

depending on how many people sign up, it's going to be centered on P T S D.

Nathan:

And, uh, it will be the same as the other type of groups in that

Nathan:

it's a peer support based model.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, it's not a hierarchy, it's not a top down, it's not a, here I'm

Nathan:

the expert, listen to me thing.

Nathan:

It's a bunch of people getting together online, exchanging ideas about what

Nathan:

works for P T S D or just talking about what's not working at the time.

Nathan:

And, uh, finding support in others because that's, that, uh, that's

Nathan:

that community that we're talking about and we're trying to build.

Nathan:

So, yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Corey's gonna take that on and, uh, we're gonna start that in the new year.

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

, we'll have something up and go on by, uh, I'd like to by the end of January,

Nathan:

I think we can make that happen.

Nathan:

Absolutely.

Nathan:

Yep.

Nathan:

Yeah, so I, I thought I'd throw that in there.

Corey:

I'm glad that you did, Nathan.

Corey:

I, it's, it is, I think it's something that we're still learning about, that

Corey:

society's still learning about that addiction medicine is still, is still

Corey:

learning about, you know, I look at the fact that workers' compensation

Corey:

organizations in our country and in our province are now understanding and

Corey:

accepting that there's a correlation between P PTs, d Complex, P T S D and, and

Corey:

addiction and are are supportive of that.

Corey:

That in itself is a milestone and it is, yeah.

Corey:

That's good to see.

Corey:

It's good to see it.

Corey:

It's a relatively new.

Corey:

A new sort of approach that is being taken there because I, I think it's

Corey:

what we're, what we've learned is that people come, again, people have

Corey:

had such a vast array of experiences that, that got them to that place.

Nathan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan:

But there are, there's threads of commonality that can be, I mean, we

Nathan:

could take advantage of these things in, in community with community support.

Nathan:

So, yeah.

Nathan:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.

Nathan:

What I'll do is just, uh, mention this last book here again.

Nathan:

Uh, thanks to Peter for pointing this one out.

Nathan:

It looks good.

Nathan:

I've only, you know, went through the first little bit, but it's

Nathan:

this author, uh, Carl Eric Fisher.

Nathan:

Fisher is the last name and, uh, it's called The Urge or History of Addiction.

Nathan:

And it looks like this guy spent about 10 years just really going deep on.

Nathan:

, all these, uh, you know, you talk about the old campaigns, uh, uh,

Nathan:

and, uh, patterns of drug, uh, they, they, they call drug epi epidemics.

Nathan:

Um, and to see how far back this pattern that we've been in goes is fascinating.

Nathan:

And this guy really nails it down and points out some, uh, tremendously

Nathan:

important science along the way.

Nathan:

Uh, so yeah, I've got a ways to go on that one, but I, I do wanna mention

Nathan:

it because I think it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be up there on my list.

Nathan:

So take a look at that one.

Nathan:

It's called The Urge, our History of Addiction by Carl Eric Fisher.

Nathan:

We'll just give that, uh, mention and thanks again, Peter.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Corey:

And you know, I, I'll certainly say to our listeners, we would love

Corey:

to know other books that have got you, got you through a difficult time or,

Corey:

or helped you learn something about yourself, um, helped in your, sort of,

Corey:

your progress with recovery or healing.

Corey:

whatever that may be.

Corey:

And it, like, it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a textbook, it

Corey:

doesn't have to be heavy into psychology.

Corey:

It could be a novel.

Corey:

And there are a handful of novels that I thought about about bringing

Corey:

in today too, that it would be for a different discussion.

Corey:

But, um, but yeah, whatever, whatever has sort of helped you along the

Corey:

way, we'd love to hear about it too.

Nathan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan:

Any piece of rating, a piece of poem, maybe something you wrote.

Nathan:

Um, it's, it's amazing.

Nathan:

It, it, sometimes it's, it comes down to just two or three lines, right?

Nathan:

Mm-hmm.

Nathan:

that, uh, that hit you at the right time.

Nathan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Nathan:

But yeah, this was fun, man.

Nathan:

This, uh, I like this good idea.

Nathan:

We should maybe do this, uh, I don't know, periodically of some sort.

Nathan:

I think that's a good idea.

Nathan:

Yep.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Alright, we'll leave it there, folks.

Nathan:

Uh, hope everybody's having a happy holidays and, uh, We'll probably see

Nathan:

you again in the new year, I think.

Nathan:

For sure.

Nathan:

And I don't think we're gonna have an episode in between,

Nathan:

so we'll just say that.

Nathan:

. Yeah.

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Recovery Machine Podcast
Discourse on drug addiction, drug policy, addiction treatment, and recovery.

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Nathan McLean